anoccasionalyachtsman
Well-Known Member
Use your eyes man. What is the point of the straight bit that will be roughly horizontal when the boat is heeled if not to provide lift.
a single handed or two handed club racer?
- Thread starter Birdseye
- Start date
Use your eyes man. What is the point of the straight bit that will be roughly horizontal when the boat is heeled if not to provide lift.
Ingwe
Well-Known Member
I haven't sailed a Figaro 2, but I have a pretty good idea what Flaming is talking about when saying that this type of boat is a lot harder - both mentally and physically to sail. My last boat was a Grand Surprise which is a 32 foot more inshore orientated racer than the Figaro but a touch faster than the Figaro in most normal conditions (above 30 Knots of breeze I guess you could push the Figaro harder than the Grand Surprise without killing yourself!) and my current boat is a Sunfast 3200 which is basically a Figaro 2 designed for amateurs.
All light weight race boats are very tough upwind in any sort of breeze as you just get thrown all over the place and at this size / weight they will not punch through waves so if the waves are steep you have to concentrate hard to keep the boat going and when you get it wrong it is like being in a car crash, which means that if your not used to it you will get tired after a couple of hours just from having to hang on the whole time without even actually doing anything - on the Grand Surprise I once flew about 8 foot through the air across the boat when it just stopped because I had hit a wave badly as I was trying to adjust the mainsheet at the same time as steering, fortunately I only cracked a rib. This isn't as big a problem on the SunFast as it is just that bit heavier and will punch through waves most of the time giving a much less tiring ride.
Downwind on a 32 foot boat I am pretty comfortable helming with an average boat speed of about 12 Knots (and the auto pilot will be as well) but once your average speed ticks up to about 15 knots you will probably be having surfs at around 18 knots at which point you are going fast enough to hammer into the back of the wave in front of you and when you get that wrong the boat turns into a submarine, I did this a few times on the grand surprise which fortunately had a sharp enough bow to tend to come out the other side but I am sure you have seen the Figaro's doing this and stopping dead which causes a spectacular broach / half pitchpole effect. But it means that you can't really trust the auto pilot for long periods downwind at speed because it can't know what angle to hit the next wave at and when you do get a sudden deceleration the AP will tend to over react and can luff you into a broach from chasing the sudden apparent wind angle change. Even without a spinnaker up I suspect the Figaro will probably plain with just full main and poled out jib in 20 knots of breeze so it's not always that easy to slow a fast boat down.
So yes I am sure you could buy one and de power early to sail within your limits but in which case why have such an uncomfortable boat? You would be better looking at one of the boats that was designed to do the same type of racing at the amateur end of the sport eg a J105 if your on a budget or a SunFast 3200 or JPK 10.10 if you can spend more.
All light weight race boats are very tough upwind in any sort of breeze as you just get thrown all over the place and at this size / weight they will not punch through waves so if the waves are steep you have to concentrate hard to keep the boat going and when you get it wrong it is like being in a car crash, which means that if your not used to it you will get tired after a couple of hours just from having to hang on the whole time without even actually doing anything - on the Grand Surprise I once flew about 8 foot through the air across the boat when it just stopped because I had hit a wave badly as I was trying to adjust the mainsheet at the same time as steering, fortunately I only cracked a rib. This isn't as big a problem on the SunFast as it is just that bit heavier and will punch through waves most of the time giving a much less tiring ride.
Downwind on a 32 foot boat I am pretty comfortable helming with an average boat speed of about 12 Knots (and the auto pilot will be as well) but once your average speed ticks up to about 15 knots you will probably be having surfs at around 18 knots at which point you are going fast enough to hammer into the back of the wave in front of you and when you get that wrong the boat turns into a submarine, I did this a few times on the grand surprise which fortunately had a sharp enough bow to tend to come out the other side but I am sure you have seen the Figaro's doing this and stopping dead which causes a spectacular broach / half pitchpole effect. But it means that you can't really trust the auto pilot for long periods downwind at speed because it can't know what angle to hit the next wave at and when you do get a sudden deceleration the AP will tend to over react and can luff you into a broach from chasing the sudden apparent wind angle change. Even without a spinnaker up I suspect the Figaro will probably plain with just full main and poled out jib in 20 knots of breeze so it's not always that easy to slow a fast boat down.
So yes I am sure you could buy one and de power early to sail within your limits but in which case why have such an uncomfortable boat? You would be better looking at one of the boats that was designed to do the same type of racing at the amateur end of the sport eg a J105 if your on a budget or a SunFast 3200 or JPK 10.10 if you can spend more.
Foolish Muse
Well-Known Member
You might be right, but if you look at this article in Yachting World http://www.yachtingworld.com/yachts...assisted-figaro-3-big-news-for-sailing-102174 a Beneteau Rep specifically says that the foil does not lift the boat out of the water. Perhaps he was thinking more like the Americas Cup boats. So, wanting to think about this a little more I took the boat drawing into my Illustrator and compared the lifting direction of the foil versus a standard DSS foil (in red). The boat is tilted to 17 deg. enough to get the rudder vertical. The arrows show the direction of lift. What do you think? Personally I think the DSS would be better for righting moment and boat lift. It's certainly clear that a very important aspect of the foil is in acting as a dagger board.
As per the other boat suggestions, I can only say that it is impossible for a singlehander to race a normal boat to its rating in anything above 10 knots of wind. Above 15 knots its not even worth trying. (But of course I'm still out for fun) The reason is because there is no weight on the rail and the boat will have significant leeway against crewed boats. This is such a serious issue that I wrote a whole chapter about it in my Singlehanded Tips book. This is why I did such a detailed investigation of water ballast, canting keels, the DSS, etc. But we're all still learning.
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Ingwe
Well-Known Member
I wasn't aware that there were any big races that have both solo and fully crewed boats? But a 2 handed boat can definitely be very competitive with fully crewed boats, just look at the RORC results for the past few years, there are regularly 2 handed boats in the top 10 overall on IRC and the fastnet race four years ago was obviously won overall by a 2 handed boat so it can be done and none of these boats have the fancy stability systems that you are talking about.
Foolish Muse
Well-Known Member
The OP was only discussing club racing, not "big races". So in this case I assume there won't be any problem with singlehanding against crewed boats. (I do this every week). This issue of leeway is most pronounced when beating into the wind. Once the breeze gets up, it's not unusual to lose 50 yards of leeway for every 300 yards of forward travel. It can get depressing pretty quick. This is the exact reason why singlehanded boats have gone to such lengths to replicate weight on the rail with canting keels, water ballast or the DSS.
An excellent explanation of the effect of boat heel on leeway is adapted from the website of Waypoint Amsterdam, a highly respected RYA sailing school in Amsterdam, Holland.
The keel and rudder of a sailboat are there to steer and to resist sideways forces. They do this by generating lift from the water flowing over them in the same way that an aircraft wing generates lift, though on a boat the keel and rudder are vertical so the lift goes sideways.
Although the wings on aircraft are asymmetrically shaped to be more curved on top, a wing with a symmetrical section will also generate lift by being set up to have an angle of attack to the fluid flow.
When a boat is sailing, the force that the sails generate can be divided into a driving component in line with the boat and a sideways component at 90 degrees to the boat. The sideways force makes the boat slip to leeward so the boat actually travels at a small angle downwind of its heading. The boat’s leeway has given the keel an “angle of attack.”
In essence, the boat is not pointing in the direction that it is travelling. For example, if the boat is sailing perfectly toward a distant tower on port tack at a course of 270°, a line from the centre of the transom to the bow would actually be pointing at a slightly higher angel, perhaps 273°. In this case the angle of attack is 3°. It is the angle of attack that allows a symmetrical keel to provide lift just like an asymmetrical wing. In this case the lift provided by the keel is the same 3°, allowing the boat to travel at 270° rather than 273°.
The impact of speed: One of the most commonly used phrases in sailing is “speed is your friend.” This is because the amount of lift produced by any foil is a square of the speed. If the boat doubles in speed, the lift increases by four times. This is the reason why it is vital to gain speed as quickly as possible coming out of each tack. If a boat sailing at 6 knots drops down to 3 knots while tacking, not only is the boat falling behind in distance travelled, but has cut its ability to point by three quarters. The reason why singlehanders practice tacking is not to reduce the few seconds it takes to tack but to maintain or quickly regain as much speed as possible after the tack is finished. Because of the squared factor, even a small drop in speed has a big impact on lift.
Heeling effect on the keel:
The lift that a foil generates is perpendicular to its surface. If a boat is upright any lift generated by the keel acts horizontally. As the boat heels, the lift forces from the foils move away from the horizontal.
For heel angles up to 15 degrees, the horizontal force is much the same as the lift force. As the boat heels to 20 degrees and beyond, the horizontal component of the lift force starts to fall off more rapidly. By the time the boat is over at 60 degrees only half of the lift force is going in the direction that we need.
Heeling effect on the rudder:
As the boat heels the horizontal component of the rudders lift is also reduced. If the weather helm and boat speed are constant then we need to increase the rudder angle to generate more lift so that the horizontal component stays the same. At 25 degrees of heel the rudder has to generate about 10% more lift than it did when vertical to produce the same tuning force, if we push the boat to 40 degrees we’re asking the rudder for 30% more lift.
Increasing the angle of heel also has the effect of increasing the weather helm. This needs more turning force from the rudder to counteract it just as the effective turning force it produces is being reduced. The result is that as the boat heels we find ourselves winding on more and more rudder to keep her running true. Because of the two pronged impacts, the rudder angle that we need increases even more quickly than the table of horizontal force for heel angle would suggest.
Increasing the lift generated by the rudder also increases the rudder’s drag. So as we heel the boat we get more drag from the rudder for a given tuning force. Drag slows the boat down, and slowing the boat down increases leeway.
An excellent explanation of the effect of boat heel on leeway is adapted from the website of Waypoint Amsterdam, a highly respected RYA sailing school in Amsterdam, Holland.
The keel and rudder of a sailboat are there to steer and to resist sideways forces. They do this by generating lift from the water flowing over them in the same way that an aircraft wing generates lift, though on a boat the keel and rudder are vertical so the lift goes sideways.
Although the wings on aircraft are asymmetrically shaped to be more curved on top, a wing with a symmetrical section will also generate lift by being set up to have an angle of attack to the fluid flow.
When a boat is sailing, the force that the sails generate can be divided into a driving component in line with the boat and a sideways component at 90 degrees to the boat. The sideways force makes the boat slip to leeward so the boat actually travels at a small angle downwind of its heading. The boat’s leeway has given the keel an “angle of attack.”
In essence, the boat is not pointing in the direction that it is travelling. For example, if the boat is sailing perfectly toward a distant tower on port tack at a course of 270°, a line from the centre of the transom to the bow would actually be pointing at a slightly higher angel, perhaps 273°. In this case the angle of attack is 3°. It is the angle of attack that allows a symmetrical keel to provide lift just like an asymmetrical wing. In this case the lift provided by the keel is the same 3°, allowing the boat to travel at 270° rather than 273°.
The impact of speed: One of the most commonly used phrases in sailing is “speed is your friend.” This is because the amount of lift produced by any foil is a square of the speed. If the boat doubles in speed, the lift increases by four times. This is the reason why it is vital to gain speed as quickly as possible coming out of each tack. If a boat sailing at 6 knots drops down to 3 knots while tacking, not only is the boat falling behind in distance travelled, but has cut its ability to point by three quarters. The reason why singlehanders practice tacking is not to reduce the few seconds it takes to tack but to maintain or quickly regain as much speed as possible after the tack is finished. Because of the squared factor, even a small drop in speed has a big impact on lift.
Heeling effect on the keel:
The lift that a foil generates is perpendicular to its surface. If a boat is upright any lift generated by the keel acts horizontally. As the boat heels, the lift forces from the foils move away from the horizontal.
For heel angles up to 15 degrees, the horizontal force is much the same as the lift force. As the boat heels to 20 degrees and beyond, the horizontal component of the lift force starts to fall off more rapidly. By the time the boat is over at 60 degrees only half of the lift force is going in the direction that we need.
Heeling effect on the rudder:
As the boat heels the horizontal component of the rudders lift is also reduced. If the weather helm and boat speed are constant then we need to increase the rudder angle to generate more lift so that the horizontal component stays the same. At 25 degrees of heel the rudder has to generate about 10% more lift than it did when vertical to produce the same tuning force, if we push the boat to 40 degrees we’re asking the rudder for 30% more lift.
Increasing the angle of heel also has the effect of increasing the weather helm. This needs more turning force from the rudder to counteract it just as the effective turning force it produces is being reduced. The result is that as the boat heels we find ourselves winding on more and more rudder to keep her running true. Because of the two pronged impacts, the rudder angle that we need increases even more quickly than the table of horizontal force for heel angle would suggest.
Increasing the lift generated by the rudder also increases the rudder’s drag. So as we heel the boat we get more drag from the rudder for a given tuning force. Drag slows the boat down, and slowing the boat down increases leeway.
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howard easton
N/A
The OP said
The OP clearly wants a boat in which he can do casual club racing against all sorts of other family boats and not something racy like the Figaro! I suspect robplb was nearer the mark
but we seem to have drifted onto all out race boats, issues of boats sailing to handicaps etc which is irrelevant in NHC.
The OP clearly wants a boat in which he can do casual club racing against all sorts of other family boats and not something racy like the Figaro! I suspect robplb was nearer the mark
tsekul
Well-Known Member
I am thinking along the same lines for a future boat. Possibly a Pogo 8.50 or an Archambault 31. I know on handicap we,ll never win a short inshore race on handicap again. But looks great fun . The Archambault looks to have a very good IRC rating. Both sturdy offshore racer/cruisers if boat speed is a priority. I love the Figaro 11 but the interior is pure racing machine, the other half loves sailing as much as me but the figaro is step to far down the racing avenue.
Toyed with the idea of J105 but I really don't like the interior layout. Jeaneau 3200 would be nice but there are a bit more money at the moment.
T
Toyed with the idea of J105 but I really don't like the interior layout. Jeaneau 3200 would be nice but there are a bit more money at the moment.
T
anoccasionalyachtsman
Well-Known Member
You need to understand that whilst you're right in drawing your force vectors at a right angle to each foil, their effect needs to be quantified by splitting them into vertical and horizontal components (which effect is discussed in the third para of the article you quote in your post 45). If the two foils are of equal chord then the Figaro foil has more area in the water at the heel angle you show and at a guess is offering similar lift, but significantly more resistance to leeway. One interesting feature of the Figaro foil is that the lift increases with heel (until about 45 degrees anyway), whereas the DSS decreases.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Sorry for the tardy replies, I've been away.
My blast ont he Fig 2 was in about 20kts of breeze, and that boat is seriously physical. Yes the controls are well laid out, and yes the twin rudders are ideal, but everything about that boat is designed to make it go fast, and it sets a lot of sail for a 32 foot boat. I found the mainsheet heavier than on the Elan, and the jib about the same. At the same time the motion is a lot less kind than a typical cruiser racer, and so standing up to move around the boat is harder, you have to tack faster as you lack momentum, and it likes lying on its side.... I've single and doublehanded the Elan, and it was an altogether less stressful experience.
For sure, on a long leg then I'd expect everything to be easier, as it is well laid out for a singlehander but the OP is not asking about Offshore racing, he wants a boat to race club races in.
If you want to see how well the Fig 2 goes in inshore handicap racing, go look up the results from Cowes when the Artemis boats were being sailed by their academy members and guests. Some seriously good sailors there and nowhere near sailing to their handicap.
FM - you're confusing what the Beneteau rep said "won't lift the boat out of the water" with not supposed to have the same effect as the IMOCA folis or a DSS. Neither of them lift the boat out of the water, at least not fully, and not for more than a few seconds. The photos of the IMOCAs in the yachting press with them practically out of the water except the rudder are snapshots, boats have always jumped off waves. The videos tell another story, Both have the effect of reducing the displacement of the boat and allowing it to plane faster and with more of the boat out of the water, and that is clearly the intended effect of the fig 3 foils.
As to why they didn't use something more like a DSS instead of this crazy looking thing, the only answers I've heard that make any sense are "to keep the hole in the boat above the waterline for structural integrity reasons" and "to avoid the DSS patent". I have a hard time imagining you'd go to the expense of that curved foil and give yourself the logistical headaches that will go with parking those things in the sorts of places the Figaro's visit just to get the hole a little higher up the side of the boat - since the DSS foil is above the waterline anyway.
To me it just seems odd that a one design that is so key to the development of solo sailors is using a setup (fixed keel and inverted foils) that is not seen elsewhere, and by the looks of it hasn't even been tried anywhere. Why take that risk? And why if the aim is increased speed are the polars barely any faster than the 2, and why no canting keel to match those foils?
My blast ont he Fig 2 was in about 20kts of breeze, and that boat is seriously physical. Yes the controls are well laid out, and yes the twin rudders are ideal, but everything about that boat is designed to make it go fast, and it sets a lot of sail for a 32 foot boat. I found the mainsheet heavier than on the Elan, and the jib about the same. At the same time the motion is a lot less kind than a typical cruiser racer, and so standing up to move around the boat is harder, you have to tack faster as you lack momentum, and it likes lying on its side.... I've single and doublehanded the Elan, and it was an altogether less stressful experience.
For sure, on a long leg then I'd expect everything to be easier, as it is well laid out for a singlehander but the OP is not asking about Offshore racing, he wants a boat to race club races in.
If you want to see how well the Fig 2 goes in inshore handicap racing, go look up the results from Cowes when the Artemis boats were being sailed by their academy members and guests. Some seriously good sailors there and nowhere near sailing to their handicap.
FM - you're confusing what the Beneteau rep said "won't lift the boat out of the water" with not supposed to have the same effect as the IMOCA folis or a DSS. Neither of them lift the boat out of the water, at least not fully, and not for more than a few seconds. The photos of the IMOCAs in the yachting press with them practically out of the water except the rudder are snapshots, boats have always jumped off waves. The videos tell another story, Both have the effect of reducing the displacement of the boat and allowing it to plane faster and with more of the boat out of the water, and that is clearly the intended effect of the fig 3 foils.
As to why they didn't use something more like a DSS instead of this crazy looking thing, the only answers I've heard that make any sense are "to keep the hole in the boat above the waterline for structural integrity reasons" and "to avoid the DSS patent". I have a hard time imagining you'd go to the expense of that curved foil and give yourself the logistical headaches that will go with parking those things in the sorts of places the Figaro's visit just to get the hole a little higher up the side of the boat - since the DSS foil is above the waterline anyway.
To me it just seems odd that a one design that is so key to the development of solo sailors is using a setup (fixed keel and inverted foils) that is not seen elsewhere, and by the looks of it hasn't even been tried anywhere. Why take that risk? And why if the aim is increased speed are the polars barely any faster than the 2, and why no canting keel to match those foils?
Racecruiser
Well-Known Member
This might be helpful from the SORC site showing typical boats that enter their single-handed races:
http://www.offshoresolo.com/solo-classes/sorc-classes-and-introduction
And I think this video is a Figaro 2 - more excitement than strictly necessary..... page down to find video....
http://www.yachtingworld.com/expert...se-dive-without-dropping-the-spinnaker-102586
http://www.offshoresolo.com/solo-classes/sorc-classes-and-introduction
And I think this video is a Figaro 2 - more excitement than strictly necessary..... page down to find video....
http://www.yachtingworld.com/expert...se-dive-without-dropping-the-spinnaker-102586
