a single handed or two handed club racer?

[ifoxwell]

You could do a lot worse than a small Hanse. We bought Sea Horse from a lovely chap on the Solent who had cleaned up in the SORC 'SOLO Offshore Racing Club' events in her. We are yet to get close to her full potential but she would tick most of your box's and save you a packet of money at the same time.

To give you an idea. Me racing it single handed on the river Medway

And me embarasing myself with some basic single handed sailing tips

 

[Birdseye]

I know I'm going to be somewhat biased on this but have you considered a multihull, specifically something like an F27? The one thing they don't do that well is extended cruising (a bit cramped, lack of load carrying capability and the need to sail her pretty much the whole time) but that seems very low on your list of priorities. She does sleep three easily (in proper bunks, not cots) and has a head, cooker and plumbing. As far as the sailing is concerned you would have to spend considerably more to get a monohull that comes anywhere close with regard to performance, and they're designed to be kept on a trailer which means no antifouling and minimal maintenance (I wash it down with the hose when I get home and maybe polish the hulls once a year....). The downside of multihulls is the availability of suitable racing circuits however being so mobile means you have the whole country open to you. I live just outside Dover but race on the East coast (one hour away), the Solent (three hours) or Plymouth (six hours). If you are feeling a little more adventurous take it down to the Adriatic like I did last summer (two days each way) and have a month of absolutely brilliant sailing in flat waters around Croatia...... Oh and I do 90% of my cruising single handed, and usually only race with one crew.

Which box doesn't it tick...?

Yes I have thought about that option - I had a multi once before and have sailed on a Farrier tri so I understand the level of performance. The box it doent tick is the one labelled " compatibility with a 71 year old owner with stiff joints" sadly.

 

[Birdseye]

Interesting videos but I didnt see anything about single handing the spinnaker

 

[ifoxwell]

Nope, not yet, the boat came out of the water before we could follow these films up but we'll do one in the new year... not that I am an expert in that regard. And racing on a river is far less forgiving than racing out at sea, so I thought better of it in the race shown, but we'll give it a go. The previous owner didnt have any problems though! It is the one area of single handed sailing in which bigger isnt necessarily better, our kite is never that unmanageable but when boats get up into the 30 something feet long area spinnakers do get much bigger and more unwieldy.

 

[Birdseye]

It has to be an issue of design and equipment to a large degree. My boat is a pretty conventional masthead sloop with a mast mounted ally pole on a track. The pole is heavy, the track is friction bound, the spinny is big and about the only thing going for me is the autopilot which is a below decks hydraulic job operating a barn door rudder. Then of course there is a wheel not tiller.

 

[Triassic]

Would something with an asymmetric and no pole then be more suitable for your needs, certainly a whole lot easier with minimal agility required....?

 

[flaming]

Would something with an asymmetric and no pole then be more suitable for your needs, certainly a whole lot easier with minimal agility required....?

Which brings us again to the J100 he should just go and buy!

 

[Foolish Muse]

There is absolutely no question about this. If you have that kind of money and you want to single/double hand, then you should buy a dedicated singlehanded boat. Right now, at this very moment, you can buy a brand new Figaro Beneteau II for $100k. I know someone who just bought one right off the showroom floor from the manufacturer. Apparently they've got another one to sell as well. If you are willing to wait a year or so, then you will be able to get a used Figaro Beneteau II for a lot less than $100k when the III model comes on stream. I'm thinking $50k will be the price. I did a lot of research into this boat for my singlehanded tips book and I'm salivating over the idea of buying one in a couple of years. If you want to singlehand, then the benefits of buying a designed singlehanded boat will be obvious to you.

There are many reasons to buy a dedicated singlehanded boat, but for your purpose of doing club racing, then any crewed boat that you sail will have a handicap rating as if it is being fully crewed. You will be at a very significant disadvantage by singlehanding it, even if only because you don't have weight on the rail. I discuss this at length in my book. (I singlehand an Olson 30 against fully crewed boats every week. My club was nice enough to give me a 13 second per mile PHRF adjustment to reflect my singlehanding in the weekly beer can races, but not the "official" trophy races.)

 

[Boo2]

If you are willing to wait a year or so, then you will be able to get a used Figaro Beneteau II for a lot less than $100k when the III model comes on stream. I'm thinking $50k will be the price. I did a lot of research into this boat for my singlehanded tips book and I'm salivating over the idea of buying one in a couple of years.

Why wait ? http://www.boatshop24.co.uk/sailboat/beneteau-figaro-2/81345

Impressive set of sails and already converted to IRC, which I guess is your interest ?

Boo2

 

[Foolish Muse]

Why wait ?

There's never a good reason to wait to go sailing. But once the new III boats come out, I'd expect the II boat prices to fall fast. Most of these boats are sponsored by companies and they're sure not going to want to have their name on the older model. So there will be a whole bunch for sale at a great price.

 

[Ingwe]

There's never a good reason to wait to go sailing. But once the new III boats come out, I'd expect the II boat prices to fall fast. Most of these boats are sponsored by companies and they're sure not going to want to have their name on the older model. So there will be a whole bunch for sale at a great price.

Yes I have a feeling that most of them will end up being scrapped, they are very much a young persons boat, but there aren't many under 30 year old's who could afford to run one without sponsorship and they really don't rate well apart from on a downwind point to point race where it is blowing over 15 knots which makes them pretty niche outside of one design.

 

[Boo2]

Yes I have a feeling that most of them will end up being scrapped, they are very much a young persons boat, but there aren't many under 30 year old's who could afford to run one without sponsorship and they really don't rate well apart from on a downwind point to point race where it is blowing over 15 knots which makes them pretty niche outside of one design.

Anyone prepared to hazard a guess at whether sails for the V2 will work with the V3 ? What happened when they went from V1 -> V2 ?

Boo2

 

[Ingwe]

Anyone prepared to hazard a guess at whether sails for the V2 will work with the V3 ? What happened when they went from V1 -> V2 ?

Boo2

Even if they chose to stick with the same sail dimensions the old sails would not be the optimal cut any longer as with the "Moustache" type foils on the new boats they will be sailing different angles to the old boats to achieve maximum VMG.

 

[Foolish Muse]

"Moustache" type foils

If we call the IMOCA 60 foils "Dali Moustache", then I guess we'd have to call the Figaro III foils a Fu manchu moustache.

From what I see, I don't think the Figaro III foils will provide any lift to take the boat out of the water, like the IMOCA 60 foils or like a DSS foil. I think that is even mentioned by the designer. I would welcome being corrected on this point.

Rather they act simply as a dagger board. From what I understand they placed it on the side of the hull, rather than underneath, in order to get the joint above the waterline. A dagger board is really helpful for a singlehander. This is because when the boat heals, as it will with no weight on the rail, then the keel no longer provides horizontal lift to the boat in the water and there is significant leeway. But the daggerboard actually twists the direction of travel of the boat into the wind. A boat designer describes it as sailing straight through the water "like a dart" rather than crabbing sideways.

the new boats they will be sailing different angles to the old boats to achieve maximum VMG.

This is exactly correct. Because the boat points much better because of the dagger boards, then the skipper can bear off slightly in order to increase his speed dramatically and increase VMG. So yes, the sails would be cut differently.

One other question I have; is the mast going to be shorter than the Figaro II? If the boat is significantly lighter, even without the water ballast, then they could make the mast shorter, couldn't they? And of course the boat has no fixed backstay, allowing for a huge square top main sail that was not possible on the II. I admit to having serious concerns about this. At 3 in the morning and with a 25 knot breeze is no time to ask a singlehander to perform all the intricacies of gybing with running backstays. I foresee broken masts.

 

[flaming]

Foolish muse....

I really don't know where to start with your contribution to this thread... you seem to be suggesting a figaro 2 for someone looking for a singlehanded or shorthanded club racer for someone "in his dotage". That is insane. For starters the figaro would be an absolutely awful club racer under any handicap system, and secondly I've sailed one, and as a fit early 30s regular racing sailor with quite a lot of shorthanded experience it was way, way out of my league. I came ashore a broken man from trying to get that thing round a course with an instructor. When you're doing 15 knots downwind the leeward mark comes up awfully quickly.. To suggest it for a poster in his dotage is just bonkers.

Then the bit about the fig 3, where you seem to be claiming it is not intended for the foils to lift it out of the water. Even partially like the imocas.
That is exactly the intention. Any chat you may pick up on from the designer denying this is for one reason only. The DSS patent. That is the only reason for that foil to look like that, avoiding the patent fees.

Your chat about crabbing etc is just odd. They might act as daggerboards in that way, but the point of them is to lift the boat when sending it downwind or reaching.

 

[Foolish Muse]

you seem to be suggesting a figaro 2 for someone looking for a singlehanded or shorthanded club racer for someone "in his dotage".

Sorry. I didn't see the part of the OP that suggested he was in his dotage. What I was suggesting is that if one wants to singlehand a 30'-35' boat and one has $100k to spend, then one should buy a boat designed for singlehanding, and it just happens that the Figaro II is going to be really cheap in about a year. Keep in mind that there is a huge disadvantage in singlehanding a boat that is meant to be crewed. I know this from 15 years and hundreds of races of experience. If you think singlehanding a Figaro II is hard, then imagine singlehanding a 33' boat built for a full crew! Think about launching and dousing the spinnaker with the speed of a full crew. It gets even worse if an autopilot is not allowed. This is not for the faint of heart.

With regard to the Figaro III foils. Here is what was published on the Yachting World website: "The foils are not designed to lift the boat out of the water .... they work by creating side force to supplement the skinny keel and reduce leeway while causing minimal drag."
This seems to say to me that they are designed to act more as a dagger board than as a lifting foil. From what I read above, and from looking at the design of the foils themselves, I can't see how they would lift the boat out of the water like the IMOCA's. As I said earlier, I am happy to be corrected on this, but given their statement in Yachting World that the foils are not designed to lift the boat out of the water, I'm going to need more than just the say-so of someone in a forum. The purpose of the DSS foil is to lift the leeward side of the boat, basically acting like crew weight (or water weight) on the windward side of the boat. And it also has a small lifting force that lifts the entire boat a few inches.

And the statement that they designed the foils specifically to get past the patent on the DSS; well I just don't buy that from a business point of view.

 

[lw395]

Foolish muse....

I really don't know where to start with your contribution to this thread... you seem to be suggesting a figaro 2 for someone looking for a singlehanded or shorthanded club racer for someone "in his dotage". That is insane. For starters the figaro would be an absolutely awful club racer under any handicap system, and secondly I've sailed one, and as a fit early 30s regular racing sailor with quite a lot of shorthanded experience it was way, way out of my league. I came ashore a broken man from trying to get that thing round a course with an instructor. When you're doing 15 knots downwind the leeward mark comes up awfully quickly.. To suggest it for a poster in his dotage is just bonkers.......

There are people well into bus pass territory sailing International 14's at a lot more than 15knots.
'Just Bonkers' is that supposed to be a bad thing?

 

[Boo2]

...For starters the figaro would be an absolutely awful club racer under any handicap system...

I think FM and myself were more looking at the fun factor of buying a really quick (in absolute terms) boat for peanuts rather than one that rates well. My personal interest would be sailing offshore solo races and I would be doing it strictly for fun with zero interest in whose boat gets the best number calculated after the race.

...and secondly I've sailed one, and as a fit early 30s regular racing sailor with quite a lot of shorthanded experience it was way, way out of my league. I came ashore a broken man from trying to get that thing round a course with an instructor. When you're doing 15 knots downwind the leeward mark comes up awfully quickly..

Can you give me a flavour of what they are like to sail, Flaming ? I am not in my dotage yet (not quite) but have very little sailing experience compared with most people on this forum and am interested to know what is so hard about them ?

Boo2

 

[Daydream believer]

I've sailed one, and as a fit early 30s regular racing sailor with quite a lot of shorthanded experience it was way, way out of my league. I came ashore a broken man from trying to get that thing round a course with an instructor. When you're doing 15 knots downwind the leeward mark comes up awfully quickly.. To suggest it for a poster in his dotage is just bonkers.
.

You surprise me there. Were you tired because an instructor was just making it hard for you or were you genuinely finding the boat hard to sail. I can see the point re getting a spinnaker down at 15kts & on a short leg- just do not bother hoisting it.
I have spent a lot of time studying the layout and copied a couple of small features to my own boat. I would have thought that given the time between legs ( & that does make it more of an offshore racer I admit) it would be easy to sail. In particular the steering in heavy weather & the autopilot are brilliant. The faster it goes the better it handles. The designer states that he made that a feature of the design. Lots of cockpit room, All controls to hand, Small jib etc
I do accept, however, that in a short course if one was playing with spinnakers, ballast tanks etc. one could make it ridiculously hard work. But would that really be necessary in the average fun club race?
Another point about it is that If it was breezy that sort of boat soon attracts a couple of extra gung ho crew for a short club race. Could be a really fun boat.
Wish I could persuade the wife to let me have a another "spare"

 

[howard easton]

Foolish muse....

I really don't know where to start with your contribution to this thread... you seem to be suggesting a figaro 2 for someone looking for a singlehanded or shorthanded club racer for someone "in his dotage". That is insane. For starters the figaro would be an absolutely awful club racer under any handicap system, and secondly I've sailed one, and as a fit early 30s regular racing sailor with quite a lot of shorthanded experience it was way, way out of my league. I came ashore a broken man from trying to get that thing round a course with an instructor. When you're doing 15 knots downwind the leeward mark comes up awfully quickly.. To suggest it for a poster in his dotage is just bonkers.
.

Could it be that you tried to sail the boat like a short course sailor when its designed for long legs? After all, long distance single handed sailors dont leap about the boat as we do on the 2 hour short leg courses.

That said I agree with you. A Figaro cant be what the OP is looking for, particularly since he mentions NHC. I'd be thinking more Elan 310 or similar. Maybe a smaller Benny First. Elan E1 ? Cruiser racer rather than all out racer?