A private purchase of a boat that is in France but flying an IT flag.

[mil1194]

Hi guys,

I have been physically looking at a boat in the SoF that is privately owned by a French individual but is still flying an IT flag. There is VAT paid but of course that is pretty much irrelevant if I wanted it in the UK.
I assume that if a broker was involved this would be a lot simpler but are there any checks I can make to ensure that they do actually own it, no loan/lease outstanding etc.
Also how do I go about registering it in the UK on arrival with it? Is it just a case of calling a number and paying the VAT - 20% (of the purchase price), do I wait for them to contact me and what is the safest way to pay the current owners,

Do I actually need to register it in the UK or is it just ‘the done thing’?

I have seen many threads on this in the past but they date back to before brex1t so I wondered if anyone had any useful info that they would like to share.
TIA,

 

[jon and michie]

I did hear a few years ago that its best to get a french marine lawyer on the case for the transition of ownership of a boat in france

 

[mil1194]

I did hear a few years ago that its best to get a french marine lawyer on the case for the transition of ownership of a boat in france

That would definitely help sort out some of the bumps. If anyone can recommend one near Villefranche-sur-mer/ Nice then I am all ears.

 

[Portofino]

You need to be an Italian citizen to fly the Italian flag .
Its illegal if this guy is not .
There are threads ( which I have contributed + many others ) on the de registration , they call it irradiation of the flag of it sounds like it to an Eng ear .

There will be reason why it’s not been done and reg d on the French reg + flagged .Usually €€€ based ie avoidance of French boat tax .There are threads on this too , how it’s calculated.Only applies to French in French waters .

Surprised the owners not been caught by the border police , they are permanently roaming about boarding boats on that strip .
I should know been done 3 x while I was there and they always ( amongst other stuff ) want to see the reg docs and passport to connect the two up first .

What is it , the boat btw ?

As far as the other end should it get that far depending on its size and transport method you either have to pay the vat before it arrives the transportation Co will handle it , or just enquire online fir the relevant form assuming it arrives without any one asking ?
Reg is simply online , but there is an honesty question along the lines of “ it’s an offence to register a boat while it’s on another register “ along with other info you tick a box to say you understand theses provisos.


You could ask a broker a reputable one , say Sunseeker Fr or Princess.Fr to handle it but they will of course have a commission % .

Tricky thing is will anyone reputable want to unearth the French guys if iam correct acting illegally by keeping it on the IT reg .
What else is hidden ?

Have you seen the blue book , the IT reg book ? It will have a name in it who’s an Italian citizen , Who is that in relation to the “ owner “ ?

Run .

 

[westernman]

Usually €€€ based ie avoidance of French boat tax .There are threads on this too , how it’s calculated.Only applies to French in French waters .

Wrong!

It applies to French citizens and French residents (including foreigners) where ever the boat is in the world. Regardless of the flag.

If the boat is French flagged it is called the tax is called "droit annuel de francisation et de navigation", otherwise it is called "droit de passeport". The amount of the tax is exactly the same in both cases.

 

[Portofino]

Wrong!

It applies to French citizens and French residents (including foreigners) where ever the boat is in the world. Regardless of the flag.

If the boat is French flagged it is called the tax is called "droit annuel de francisation et de navigation", otherwise it is called "droit de passeport". The amount of the tax is exactly the same in both cases.

How will the Fr tax people know ?
Why do think the Fr guy illegally still leaves it under an Italian flag ?

 

[westernman]

How will the Fr tax people know ?

If the boat is in France, the marina will want to see the registration document, and identity document for the owner. The identity document has an address on it.

From time to time, the French douanes, go through the documents held by the marina for each of the boats moored there looking for people who might not be paying their share of tax. The same happens in Spain as well.

Why do think the Fr guy illegally still leaves it under an Italian flag ?

It could be legally on the Italian registry. If the French guy is an Italian resident.

Still does not make it legal for the French guy not to be paying his "Droit de Passeport".

However, this particular French tax rule might not itself be totally legal either. I.e. a French citizen resident in Italy who keeps a boat on the Italian flag and keeps the boat in Italy, theoretically is liable to pay the French "Droit de Passeport" in France. But I doubt any one in that situation actually does pay the French tax.

However, a French citizen who is resident in France and keeps a boat in France is flying very close to the wind if he thinks he can get away without paying the "Droit de Passeport" for his foreign flagged boat.

 

[westernman]

How will the Fr tax people know ?
Why do think the Fr guy illegally still leaves it under an Italian flag ?

None of this matters for the buyer.

Just check that the Italian registry confirms that the registration document is still current and valid.
(e.g. the document was not declared lost, replaced and the boat subsequently irradiated and sold for example - i.e. check that the boat is being sold by the current owner).

 

[DavidJ]

Assuming there is unpaid tax due. Is it the boat or previous owner who carries liability?

 

[westernman]

Assuming there is unpaid tax due. Is it the boat or previous owner who carries liability?

My understanding is that the tax is due by the person and is not attached in any way to the boat.

[ Warning: this advice is probably worth at most what you paid for it ]

 

[Portofino]

None of this matters for the buyer.

Just check that the Italian registry confirms that the registration document is still current and valid.
(e.g. the document was not declared lost, replaced and the boat subsequently irradiated and sold for example - i.e. check that the boat is being sold by the current owner).

Did you miss the last line on my post
“ Have you seen the blue book , the IT reg book ? It will have a name in it who’s an Italian citizen , Who is that in relation to the “ owner “ ?

If it’s not on the Fr reg which it’s not ,then this is the reg doc ( hence the flag ) the Marina have on file .
The guy is a French citizen btw .

Not too sure they need the I’d doc of the person who takes the birth , think skippers , dealers and guardians moving boats .They normally just want the reg doc to lift the official dimensions off for the tariff .

So how can the blue book be not current ?
I mean what’s the Fr guy used and using when he visits other marinas ?

Could be he has a long concession on a berth and just swapped boats in it .As long as it fits and he pays his chargers , tells the “friends “ in the office he has a different boat who s bothered ?
Anyhow we still not know his motivation to not irradiate the it flag , and transfer it to the Fr reg.

When I swapped boats I sold my sunseeker , told them to rent out the berth and when I bought a new boat asked them to kick out the tenant .About 3 months later
Turned up from Naples with an Italian flag on the stern and a blue book , the original with the PO s details , address etc in it .Nobody in the office battered an eye lid .My guardian liaised with the Marina office re the exact date and time of my arrival he has a brokerage office on the Marina and moving boats , shuffling boats continually .

A few months later Nov to Feb the official irradiation came through.The boat was winterised flag pole inside out of sight .When I pitched up the following May I put the red duster and decals on and removed the IT decals .
Nobody asked to see any docs as its my berth .I don’t recall ever showing the new part 3 SSR doc to my home port .

How ever on the del trip we used the blue book as it was all we had in visiting marinas .
Now we use the U.K. part 3 reg doc visiting marinas + they ask to see the ins doc .

But at my home port I am free to stick any boat as long as it fits into my berth .Curtesy means it’s nice to inform them .
All they wanna see is the insurance doc , keep a copy on file that’s all .

 

[westernman]

Did you miss the last line on my post
“ Have you seen the blue book , the IT reg book ? It will have a name in it who’s an Italian citizen , Who is that in relation to the “ owner “ ?

If it’s not on the Fr reg which it’s not ,then this is the reg doc ( hence the flag ) the Marina have on file .
The guy is a French citizen btw .

Not too sure they need the I’d doc of the person who takes the birth , think skippers , dealers and guardians moving boats .They normally just want the reg doc to lift the official dimensions off for the tariff .

So how can the blue book be not current ?
I mean what’s the Fr guy used and using when he visits other marinas ?

Could be he has a long concession on a berth and just swapped boats in it .As long as it fits and he pays his chargers , tells the “friends “ in the office he has a different boat who s bothered ?
Anyhow we still not know his motivation to not irradiate the it flag , and transfer it to the Fr reg.

When I swapped boats I sold my sunseeker , told them to rent out the berth and when I bought a new boat asked them to kick out the tenant .About 3 months later
Turned up from Naples with an Italian flag on the stern and a blue book , the original with the PO s details , address etc in it .Nobody in the office battered an eye lid .My guardian liaised with the Marina office re the exact date and time of my arrival he has a brokerage office on the Marina and moving boats , shuffling boats continually .

A few months later Nov to Feb the official irradiation came through.The boat was winterised flag pole inside out of sight .When I pitched up the following May I put the red duster and decals on and removed the IT decals .
Nobody asked to see any docs as its my berth .I don’t recall ever showing the new part 3 SSR doc to my home port .

How ever on the del trip we used the blue book as it was all we had in visiting marinas .
Now we use the U.K. part 3 reg doc visiting marinas + they ask to see the ins doc .

But at my home port I am free to stick any boat as long as it fits into my berth .Curtesy means it’s nice to inform them .
All they wanna see is the insurance doc , keep a copy on file that’s all .

You do not have to be an Italian citizen to have a boat registered on the Italian register.
As a French citizen and/or resident you do not have to register your boat in France.

In theory, if you are a French citizen or a foreigner resident in France and you have a boat you should be paying a tax.
Obviously a possible motivation for a French citizen keeping a boat on the Italian register is to avoid paying the French tax.

But this is risky, as in my experience, all French marinas want to see the boat registration document when stopping for a temporary stay, and for a permanent rental stay (may be if you own the berth things are different) want to see registration, insurance and an official identity document for the owner who is on the other documents.

 

[Portofino]

I disagree with your “ You do not have to be an Italian citizen to have a boat registered on the Italian register.”

I was told you had to .

Also this
“or a foreigner resident in France and you have a boat you should be paying a tax.”

- only if it’s on the French register.

But as being a foreigner with say a U.K. passport you reg it on the U.K. part 3 using your mothers , brothers address or they register it for you .
You brother s given you permission to use it at the time any body asks .
Or it’s on U.K. part 1 as you breezed up to SIBS and with the assistance of Mr Lombard finance sailed away with a huge boat on a huge U.K. bank mortgage = it’s flys a red duster perched at the bottom of your villa garden in Port Grimaud.

You never settle the last £100 , just peppercorn it away for ever until it’s time to offload it and then hand 100 quid over to the buyers solicitor to settle the finance so it’s loan free for the next guy .


Interestingly a lot of Italians use a U.K. banks to finance there boats .
So they fly red dusters as the bank owns it until it’s fully paid .
Avoid Italian reg and all that that might entail .

 

[westernman]

I disagree with your “ You do not have to be an Italian citizen to have a boat registered on the Italian register.”

From the website below:-

"Nationality
All EU and non- EU nationals can register their boat in the Italian ships registrar. As a non-EU passport holder you do not even have to reside in Italy."

Yacht registration in Italy

 

[westernman]

Also this
“or a foreigner resident in France and you have a boat you should be paying a tax.”

- only if it’s on the French register.

From Vous naviguez sous pavillon étranger : le droit de passeport

"Sont assujetties au droit de passeport les personnes physiques ou morales qui ont leur résidence principale ou leur siège social en France et qui sont propriétaires d'un navire de plaisance ou d'un véhicule nautique à moteur (VNM) battant pavillon étranger."

"Natural or legal persons who have their main residence or registered office in France and who own a pleasure boat or personal watercraft (PWC) flying a foreign flag are subject to the "droit de passeport".

I.e. anyone resident.

Either you have the boat registered in France and pay the "Droit annuel de francisation" or it has a foreign registration and you pay the "droit de passeport" which is the exact same amount.

And if you are going to be liable to either of those taxes, make sure .the total cubic capacity of all propulsion engines is less than 25 litres. Above that is a very nasty break in the progressive curve (bigger engines per more tax per litre) and above 25 litres there is a huge step up in the tax per litre and no discount for age.

 

[Portofino]

That’s a lot of extra hassle the 5 y survey and 2 yr L raft service ( if he has one ) .
Where is the motivation?

From Vous naviguez sous pavillon étranger : le droit de passeport

"Sont assujetties au droit de passeport les personnes physiques ou morales qui ont leur résidence principale ou leur siège social en France et qui sont propriétaires d'un navire de plaisance ou d'un véhicule nautique à moteur (VNM) battant pavillon étranger."

"Natural or legal persons who have their main residence or registered office in France and who own a pleasure boat or personal watercraft (PWC) flying a foreign flag are subject to the "droit de passeport".

I.e. anyone resident.

Either you have the boat registered in France and pay the "Droit annuel de francisation" or it has a foreign registration and you pay the "droit de passeport" which is the exact same amount.

Boats not in your name it’s owned by someone in the U.K. on the U.K. reg doc .
Thats the point .

 

[PlanB]

Having read all of the above detailing potential complications and hazards (not to mention the various unknowns and differences of opinion), and taking into account the costs involved in getting the boat legally into the UK, I'd be asking myself if it was worth the effort.

 

[jon and michie]

Correct - there's more than one boat in the world

 

[DAW]

From Vous naviguez sous pavillon étranger : le droit de passeport

"Sont assujetties au droit de passeport les personnes physiques ou morales qui ont leur résidence principale ou leur siège social en France et qui sont propriétaires d'un navire de plaisance ou d'un véhicule nautique à moteur (VNM) battant pavillon étranger."

"Natural or legal persons who have their main residence or registered office in France and who own a pleasure boat or personal watercraft (PWC) flying a foreign flag are subject to the "droit de passeport".

I.e. anyone resident.

Either you have the boat registered in France and pay the "Droit annuel de francisation" or it has a foreign registration and you pay the "droit de passeport" which is the exact same amount.

And if you are going to be liable to either of those taxes, make sure .the total cubic capacity of all propulsion engines is less than 25 litres. Above that is a very nasty break in the progressive curve (bigger engines per more tax per litre) and above 25 litres there is a huge step up in the tax per litre and no discount for age.

In practice, I think this is something they don't really enforce very rigourously. They largely rely on the marinas to manage the position for "resident" foreign boats and keep people honest, with occasional checks carried out by the customs authorities through inspecting documents in the capitaineries and on the water. The marinas are supposed to hold records of the registered ownership of the boat and copies of all important documents (registration certificate, tax documents, insurance, etc.). If the owner of a foreign registered boat provides an address in France, they should query this.

I have heard stories of Monaco residents with UK-flagged boats being contacted by the Douanes following ad-hoc marina visits and being asked to confirm they do not also have a place of residence in France, or if they do, still consider themselves non-resident. Whenever I've been subjected to onboard document checks, its a question that always comes up if you have a boat registered to an address in the UK, kept in a French marina and a residents card for Monaco. For a 50-60ft boat the tax is significant (EUR 5-6K last time I checked) and the fines and other penalties for non-payment are significant.

 

[westernman]

Having read all of the above detailing potential complications and hazards (not to mention the various unknowns and differences of opinion), and taking into account the costs involved in getting the boat legally into the UK, I'd be asking myself if it was worth the effort.

One advantage of French registration is that it is a definitive proof of ownership.
As part of the sale process, the owner has to irradiate the registration in his name in order to transfer the ownership to a new buyer.
The act of irradiation guarantees that the new buyer will be the legitimate owner and that there are no charges registered against the boat (e.g. a mortgage or financing of some kind). Also, in the case of a private owner (i.e. the boat is not owned by a company) the new owner cannot be held liable for VAT within the EU.

Both of which I understand are not guaranteed by a UK registration.

I.e. buying a French registered boat is much less risky than buying a UK registered boat.

I suspect Italian registration provides the same advantages.