A newbie looking for some advice on buying a family boat and learning the ropes

[drtyrttnscndrl]

First let me apologise for this first long post, it wasn’t my intention....I really got the bug for boating this year and have started looking into buying a boat. I have spent hours reading many forum posts of people in a similar position to me so I thought I would share my thoughts and would greatly appreciate any advice or opinions any of you have.

I live in the UK (nowhere near any place you can do RYA skipper practical courses) but have a place in SoF where we spend nearly every school holiday. I retired early and have 3 young kids at school in England all 12 and under. Oh and a wife and a dog. In no particular order.

This summer I did my PB II course in Antibes (with my 12 yr old daughter who is as obsessed as me) and she plotted out a training plan including Day/Coastal Skipper all the way to YachtMaster. So far I have started the Day Skipper theory online as well as Basic Seamanship and UHF licence. Unfortunately my daughter has to wait until she is 16 before she can get officially recognised for her boating skills.

Realistically, I’ll aim to get my DS Practical in May or July next year in France at an RYA school.

In terms of boat, what I am looking for is something around 50ft, flybridge, 3 berth, where we could comfortably sleep for a few nights and have friends on during the day. I’m thinking second hand but probably only 2 or 3 years old.
I took a trip to La Napoule recently and met with the Sunseeker and Princess brokerages who were both very helpful. As I looked into the sort of boats which fit our bill, I realised that we are spoilt for choice. I was gutted that the Cannes festival was cancelled as it had a lot of these boats in one place but never mind....
Princess 52
Sunseeker Manhattan 52 (seeing one tomorrow)
Sealine F430/530
Prestige 5x0 (tomorrow)
Absolute 5x (tomorrow)
Azimut 5x

The list goes on....

I’d expect the likelihood is that I buy from La Napoule and berth it there, have all the maintenance done that is needed on a regular basis so that it is ready to go whenever we plan to use it. I’d say in the first few years I’d use it for trips along the coast with the occasional nights out. My longer term aim is to be able to travel from the UK to the Med or reverse.

I’m in no massive rush to buy a boat, I could quite happily charter a boat next year if its the sensible thing to do with a view to having a boat which is ready to use from May 2022 and get some help from an instructor on our boat for a few days.

So my ask from the people on this forum who have a wealth of knowledge and experience is

How do you make the choice of boat?
Is my approach sensible?
Should I be considering anything else?
Should or could I do it quicker?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Halsey]

Happy to contribute after - 50+years of mainly inland boating - you make a short list, prioritise it, go looking and fall in love with a particular boat you see and the list goes out of the window!

Seriously though - don't make the list too long as that will prove fruitless unless/until you have two direct boats to compare.

For example we have just gone through this process and we had three absolute givens for our search - safe and easy side decks - easy dog access from landing stages and shaft driven - that made the search MUCH easier as we rigidly stuck to them - after that the other more flexible elements helped refine our thoughts

Buy used - every boat has to settle down whatever the budget so let someone else take that on for you - min 3 years and 300 hrs is about right in my view.

If you are able to charter your chosen model even better ............

Enjoy the process - it will throw lots of hurdles your way - and finally SURVEY before purchase

 

[kashurst]

At the size and budget I think you are looking I would definitely want some sort of stabilizer system - either a gyroscope or fins.
All the boats you list are good boats, but over the years I go for simplicity and reliability over speed/fuel economy.
With that in mind I would prefer shaft drives, and a good deep V hull for a smooth ride. After that lots of room around the engines - you want to be able to get all around them on a fifty foot plus boat - makes life simple if something goes wrong.
If you buy new, upgrade the anchor to a Rocna/Mantus/Supreme as big as can possibly be fitted with a big long chain. If you but second hand same again. As to the interior - check out how steep the flybridge steps are, especially if you have very young children,

 

[Meagain]

Welcome to a crazy, beautiful pastime. Do as you are, training helps bring confidence and confidence makes it enjoyable. Think hard how you will use the boat and write down things that are “really” important. For us we decided on the boat we wanted and then spent time finding the right one, condition/ options etc. Watch your budget as you will spend more !! My only caution is going straight to 50’ if you haven’t driven a boat before, manoeuvring takes practice and nothing hurts more than crunching your pride and joy. You may want to consider how you can build up confidence maybe charter something a little smaller like 34’ first and build up experience. You want to be able to relax and enjoy your time and not fret about returning to your berth ?

 

[Halsey]

My only caution is going straight to 50’ if you haven’t driven a boat before, manoeuvring takes practice and nothing hurts more than crunching your pride and joy. You may want to consider how you can build up confidence maybe charter something a little smaller like 34’ first and build up experience. You want to be able to relax and enjoy your time and not fret about returning to your berth ?

VERY good advice

 

[drtyrttnscndrl]

Happy to contribute after - 50+years of mainly inland boating - you make a short list, prioritise it, go looking and fall in love with a particular boat you see and the list goes out of the window!

Seriously though - don't make the list too long as that will prove fruitless unless/until you have two direct boats to compare.

For example we have just gone through this process and we had three absolute givens for our search - safe and easy side decks - easy dog access from landing stages and shaft driven - that made the search MUCH easier as we rigidly stuck to them - after that the other more flexible elements helped refine our thoughts

Buy used - every boat has to settle down whatever the budget so let someone else take that on for you - min 3 years and 300 hrs is about right in my view.

If you are able to charter your chosen model even better ............

Enjoy the process - it will throw lots of hurdles your way - and finally SURVEY before purchase

Thank you for the reply - all very useful. I suspect that the slower approach is the safe and fruitful one, if I can get over the excitement of not yet owning my boat - the journey is the reward after all.

Easy dog access and child-friendly (in general) is on the short list. Shaft driven keeps coming up in discussions. I guess that comes down to keeping things simple, I don't pretend to know much but even if I could say that most of our journeys will be short coastal day trips it still feels like something is more likely to go wrong with pods. I can't help but want to understand why so many of the boat builders are switching though - it can't just be about the joystick and the assumed increase in efficiency. I think it gives them more space for cabins but if they keep getting unhappy customers its a short-lived win. Probably for another thread though.

I'm pretty certain we will go second-hand and that feels like a good guideline.

Thanks again, hopefully I'll keep this post updated, it might well be a slow burner though.

 

[drtyrttnscndrl]

At the size and budget I think you are looking I would definitely want some sort of stabilizer system - either a gyroscope or fins.
All the boats you list are good boats, but over the years I go for simplicity and reliability over speed/fuel economy.
With that in mind I would prefer shaft drives, and a good deep V hull for a smooth ride. After that lots of room around the engines - you want to be able to get all around them on a fifty foot plus boat - makes life simple if something goes wrong.
If you buy new, upgrade the anchor to a Rocna/Mantus/Supreme as big as can possibly be fitted with a big long chain. If you but second hand same again. As to the interior - check out how steep the flybridge steps are, especially if you have very young children,

Brilliant, thank you. A smooth and easy ride is my preference. Shafts again! I've already started looking at the steps, the children could manage it, I'm not sure if the dog could though judging by some of the ladders I've seen rather than steps. I presume from what you are saying that some of the stuff that might go wrong is relatively easy to learn how to fix?
I feel I am starting to get a better idea already.

 

[drtyrttnscndrl]

Welcome to a crazy, beautiful pastime. Do as you are, training helps bring confidence and confidence makes it enjoyable. Think hard how you will use the boat and write down things that are “really” important. For us we decided on the boat we wanted and then spent time finding the right one, condition/ options etc. Watch your budget as you will spend more !! My only caution is going straight to 50’ if you haven’t driven a boat before, manoeuvring takes practice and nothing hurts more than crunching your pride and joy. You may want to consider how you can build up confidence maybe charter something a little smaller like 34’ first and build up experience. You want to be able to relax and enjoy your time and not fret about returning to your berth ?

Thank you for the reply. I have to admit, the length does concern me, it just means convincing the rest of the family that the sleeping options might be more limited. I do think though as I said that the amount of sleeping we will do will be limited at in the short term. Others have said though that a bigger boat is more stable. I guess I can only find out with practice and I'm in no rush...

 

[jrudge]

Dont let the size of it bother you. It is what you are used to and how much decent tuition you have.

It would be simpler to do a RYA level 2 on a 30 odd foot boat so you can concentrate on helming whilst seeing the edges of the boat, but you get used to a big boat rapidly. Dont buy a small boat. You will loose money and waste time. Buy what you need / want.

One of the bigger challenges is finding a berth which in SOF often means buying one. Depending on the length of the lease this can cost as much as the boat. Some dealers may provide a berth with the boat - but if so, do understand how long for.

You dont say a budget. Everything is a compromise. I have a Squadron 58 - I have 2 kids. With 3 and a dog ( and kids friends ) I would suggest 50 feet is on the small side - but again it is back to budget. Stabilisation is good ( I am having a gyro fitted in 3 weeks time) and you will also want water toys like a Willaims rib for the kids to Ski etc. Your boating is likely move, anchor, play, go home. You needs to have lots to play with or the kids will sit in the cabin on their iPad.

Whilst not essential a large part of owning a boat is fixing things. No matter if it is new or second hand they are 3/4/5 bedroom apartments with Air con, engines, generators, kitchens, bathrooms that dont get used for months and then move at 30 odd MPH. Things break. If you have the skills and tools to fix it on the hoof you have better holidays.


Budget is the main unknown here.

 

[jrudge]

VERY good advice

I honestly disagree. The bigger they get the simpler they are. to helm They are more stable and do what they are told! I want from 33 to 40 to 65. The 65 I was petrified of until I took it out and parked it which was nil drama.

 

[Halsey]

I honestly disagree. The bigger they get the simpler they are. to helm They are more stable and do what they are told! I want from 33 to 40 to 65. The 65 I was petrified of until I took it out and parked it which was nil drama.

I know where you are coming from and YES the reality is a bigger boat is easier BUT if you have no experience at all it can be daunting - its not just length but bulk/mass - I certainly wouldn't have wanted to helm the IoW ferry as my first boat

 

[Hurricane]

I was going to add my three pennyworth but jrudge has summed up most of my thoughts.
Although, I wouldn't bother with a stabiliser.
If is too rough to need a stabiliser, maybe you shouldn't be there - but thats a very personal thing.

I wouldn't worry too much about qualifications.
Experience (getting out there and doing it) is far more valuable.
The only qualification that you will actually NEED is an ICC which you can get off the back of a Day Skipper (or do an ICC test itself)
I have a Yachtmaster qualification but nobody has been interested in seeing it.
In fact nobody has ever asked to see my ICC either.

The big point I would like to add is that you should think hard about how you are going to use it.
So the point about the dog and stairs is important but also think about how the family will sit down to dinner/breakfast - both whilst the boat is in the marina and whilst away.
Remember that a flybridge and the cockpit are excellent places for a family dinner.
Overnight anchoring is very scary to begin with so don't challenge yourself too much in that direction.
I agree that to begin with short day trips.
A lot of us on this forum have rigged our boats with extra gizmos like bigger and better anchors etc but all that kind of thing will come with time.

I also endorse jrudge's comment about the bigger they get the easier they are to handle - ours is 67 feet (20m) long.
All I think of is "momentum" - ours is a little under 50 tons so I just think "if I'm going to have a crash - it has to be a SLOW crash". Then fenders do the job.

The squaddie 58 that jrudge suggests is an excellent boat.
We started with a Sealine T51 but everything considered, you would be better of with a Squadron 58.
For me, I agree with others - definitely a shaft boat for me - they aren't that difficult to drive - put a thruster on each end and you won't have any trouble.

The cost of the berth has been mentioned and I have to say that you are considering the most expensive part of the Med to keep a boat.
IMO, along with Mallorca, the SoF is hyper expensive.
I'm guessing but a 50 foot boat in either of those places will cost upwards of £30,000 pa to berth.
However, there are other options.
A lot of mainland Spain is way cheaper
You can berth a 50 footer in our Spanish marina for example for as little as £3500 pa inc electricity and water.
See - quite a difference.

Anyway - good luck and as others have said enjoy the looking.

 

[Chris H]

Don’t worry about size, I jumped into a 52ft with arneson drives without any previous experience and have no problem driving and parking up, have look around as many boats as possible and you’ll get a feel for what you want, it’s very personal as everybody wants different things from a boat.

I think there is only La Napoule and Monaco that have any reasonable lease time left on berths, from Dec 21, there will only be yearly berths available across sof, or that is the current plan !

 

[Portofino]

I have a 50 ft berth in la Nap ( expires 2029 * )
If your Fr is any good there permit d Mer at the bateau ecoles is imho the best option .
Assuming you want to keep the boat @ la Nap , post Brexit because you are not transient the FR might do the paperwork by the book .A sort of CYA qualification.
They love it when I flash my FR qualification, after they have asked where I keep my boat .
Unless you are on transit they might and can insist you obey all FR maritime rules / regs .
There flare one is particularly interesting, no out of date = big fine , and a std pack circa €300 for 3 years life .
+ much more .Sunseeker were excellent with me , Alex organised a skipper and own boat tuition.
Two more mates ( who did not have a berth ) were “ found “ them for about £1 K pcm as part of the deal on quay E the 50 ftr quay where mine is .
Davide the old man at DLB , and Bart at the FL brokers + the Abs farther + son outfit all have berths .
Currently I sub let mine for circa €17 k to the FL dealer as we ( after 14 y ) are taking a sabbatical in Italy it’s a nearer to home .

Size - agree with Chris H , 50 Fine , my two mates dived in with S/Skrs
Porto 47 and San Remo 48 .
Avoid IPS go for shafts .
As you know the Volvo Penta HQ is by the airport so plenty of back up , Three MAN agents and a MTU nearby too .
Arie d Boom in la Rague are great too for maintenance, they can send a sparky within the hour .
Sunseeker s SoF maintenance Center is 10 mins away nearer than VP .
They pride them selves on customer service .
So the S/Skr Route is well trodden path , tuition , maintenance, repairs , call outs , berths .
Danny of Sunny Yachting is there guy a great , he’s Italian btw ( read into that what you will ? )
Enzo there sparky is also Italian .

You need to ask your family how you are going to use your boat ?
We have a holiday home as well in Antibes , so the floating apartment thing many on here seem to need was low down on the priority list .
Seakeeping , speed , sun bathing , outdoor dining and ease / simple to use , plus the SoF style pace and grace thing was higher up the list .

No Doubt you have dock walked St Trop , Monaco et al ?
SunCap have a hanger full of Pershings, Itama and Riva In Grimaud.......all for sale .Its a nice eye opening day out .
Christopher is your guy .

Finally do try before you buy .
We went out on a Riva 52 and frankly it was shocking from a slamming pov .

Any more advice just shout .

* Had two previous 5 y extensions and I understand another is in gestation .

 

[drtyrttnscndrl]

Dont let the size of it bother you. It is what you are used to and how much decent tuition you have.

It would be simpler to do a RYA level 2 on a 30 odd foot boat so you can concentrate on helming whilst seeing the edges of the boat, but you get used to a big boat rapidly. Dont buy a small boat. You will loose money and waste time. Buy what you need / want.

One of the bigger challenges is finding a berth which in SOF often means buying one. Depending on the length of the lease this can cost as much as the boat. Some dealers may provide a berth with the boat - but if so, do understand how long for.

You dont say a budget. Everything is a compromise. I have a Squadron 58 - I have 2 kids. With 3 and a dog ( and kids friends ) I would suggest 50 feet is on the small side - but again it is back to budget. Stabilisation is good ( I am having a gyro fitted in 3 weeks time) and you will also want water toys like a Willaims rib for the kids to Ski etc. Your boating is likely move, anchor, play, go home. You needs to have lots to play with or the kids will sit in the cabin on their iPad.

Whilst not essential a large part of owning a boat is fixing things. No matter if it is new or second hand they are 3/4/5 bedroom apartments with Air con, engines, generators, kitchens, bathrooms that dont get used for months and then move at 30 odd MPH. Things break. If you have the skills and tools to fix it on the hoof you have better holidays.


Budget is the main unknown here.

Thank you for the advice. I saw 3 boats today and whilst it is far from a done deal, no surprise to hear that the biggest and most expensive turned out to be the winner (so far). The wife says it ticks all the boxes so as far as she is concerned my work here is done. It was a 56ft boat and had everything we needed (except it wasn't for sale, yet).
I asked the salesman about my lack of experience and starting off with such a big boat and was pleased with his answer that they would make sure I had ample tuition and sign-off from a RYA instructor so I am less concerned about the size now but I still intend to get out on some smaller boats in the meantime to build up my experience.
Berths - the two salesguys I asked when I quizzed them about annual costs seemed to think that a berth could be had in or near La Napoule for less than£20k per year. I know this is a lot more than a lot of people pay but as people have said, it seems to be the going rate around here. The devil will be in the detail I suspect.
Budget, having seen the Sunseeker 52, I reckon I could stretch to a 3 year old model.
Stabiliser, we talked about and if a second hand model came about it could easily be retrofitted if we felt we needed it (like you I guess). I think you have it spot on with the boating action and toys, go without saying.

And it sounds like I need to buy a toolkit.

Thank you again.

 

[drtyrttnscndrl]

I was going to add my three pennyworth but jrudge has summed up most of my thoughts.
Although, I wouldn't bother with a stabiliser.
If is too rough to need a stabiliser, maybe you shouldn't be there - but thats a very personal thing.

I wouldn't worry too much about qualifications.
Experience (getting out there and doing it) is far more valuable.
The only qualification that you will actually NEED is an ICC which you can get off the back of a Day Skipper (or do an ICC test itself)
I have a Yachtmaster qualification but nobody has been interested in seeing it.
In fact nobody has ever asked to see my ICC either.

The big point I would like to add is that you should think hard about how you are going to use it.
So the point about the dog and stairs is important but also think about how the family will sit down to dinner/breakfast - both whilst the boat is in the marina and whilst away.
Remember that a flybridge and the cockpit are excellent places for a family dinner.
Overnight anchoring is very scary to begin with so don't challenge yourself too much in that direction.
I agree that to begin with short day trips.
A lot of us on this forum have rigged our boats with extra gizmos like bigger and better anchors etc but all that kind of thing will come with time.

I also endorse jrudge's comment about the bigger they get the easier they are to handle - ours is 67 feet (20m) long.
All I think of is "momentum" - ours is a little under 50 tons so I just think "if I'm going to have a crash - it has to be a SLOW crash". Then fenders do the job.

The squaddie 58 that jrudge suggests is an excellent boat.
We started with a Sealine T51 but everything considered, you would be better of with a Squadron 58.
For me, I agree with others - definitely a shaft boat for me - they aren't that difficult to drive - put a thruster on each end and you won't have any trouble.

The cost of the berth has been mentioned and I have to say that you are considering the most expensive part of the Med to keep a boat.
IMO, along with Mallorca, the SoF is hyper expensive.
I'm guessing but a 50 foot boat in either of those places will cost upwards of £30,000 pa to berth.
However, there are other options.
A lot of mainland Spain is way cheaper
You can berth a 50 footer in our Spanish marina for example for as little as £3500 pa inc electricity and water.
See - quite a difference.

Anyway - good luck and as others have said enjoy the looking.

Thank you for taking the time to post, I'm staggered by the number of helpful posts I have received already.
Stabiliser - sounds sensible but if needed I can retrofit.
ICC - yes intend to get that, hopefully Brexit won't affect that. But as you say experience is more valuable. Fair play to you for getting your YachtMaster.
In terms of how we would use it, I reckon most of the time will be spent on the flybridge, breakfast on the cockpit, with dinner in the saloon or anywhere for that matter. That for me was one of the great reasons for the FB.
Shafts it is then. Thrusters seem to be a no-brainer if an option and I'm sure with practice and patience I wouldn't need anything at all.
The berths, wow, to get a 50 footer for £3.5k I think we need to sell our house in SoF, that's an incredible difference.
And I'm enjoying it already....

 

[drtyrttnscndrl]

Don’t worry about size, I jumped into a 52ft with arneson drives without any previous experience and have no problem driving and parking up, have look around as many boats as possible and you’ll get a feel for what you want, it’s very personal as everybody wants different things from a boat.

I think there is only La Napoule and Monaco that have any reasonable lease time left on berths, from Dec 21, there will only be yearly berths available across sof, or that is the current plan !

Good to hear that you went straight onto a 52 footer. And thank you for the tip on berths, hopefully I can get it right.

 

[Seastoke]

Wow must be exiting , one question if you are going to live in uk and boat in sof , after 2021 will you be able to take dog like you could with dog pasport.

 

[drtyrttnscndrl]

I have a 50 ft berth in la Nap ( expires 2029 * )
If your Fr is any good there permit d Mer at the bateau ecoles is imho the best option .
Assuming you want to keep the boat @ la Nap , post Brexit because you are not transient the FR might do the paperwork by the book .A sort of CYA qualification.
They love it when I flash my FR qualification, after they have asked where I keep my boat .
Unless you are on transit they might and can insist you obey all FR maritime rules / regs .
There flare one is particularly interesting, no out of date = big fine , and a std pack circa €300 for 3 years life .
+ much more .Sunseeker were excellent with me , Alex organised a skipper and own boat tuition.
Two more mates ( who did not have a berth ) were “ found “ them for about £1 K pcm as part of the deal on quay E the 50 ftr quay where mine is .
Davide the old man at DLB , and Bart at the FL brokers + the Abs farther + son outfit all have berths .
Currently I sub let mine for circa €17 k to the FL dealer as we ( after 14 y ) are taking a sabbatical in Italy it’s a nearer to home .

Size - agree with Chris H , 50 Fine , my two mates dived in with S/Skrs
Porto 47 and San Remo 48 .
Avoid IPS go for shafts .
As you know the Volvo Penta HQ is by the airport so plenty of back up , Three MAN agents and a MTU nearby too .
Arie d Boom in la Rague are great too for maintenance, they can send a sparky within the hour .
Sunseeker s SoF maintenance Center is 10 mins away nearer than VP .
They pride them selves on customer service .
So the S/Skr Route is well trodden path , tuition , maintenance, repairs , call outs , berths .
Danny of Sunny Yachting is there guy a great , he’s Italian btw ( read into that what you will ? )
Enzo there sparky is also Italian .

You need to ask your family how you are going to use your boat ?
We have a holiday home as well in Antibes , so the floating apartment thing many on here seem to need was low down on the priority list .
Seakeeping , speed , sun bathing , outdoor dining and ease / simple to use , plus the SoF style pace and grace thing was higher up the list .

No Doubt you have dock walked St Trop , Monaco et al ?
SunCap have a hanger full of Pershings, Itama and Riva In Grimaud.......all for sale .Its a nice eye opening day out .
Christopher is your guy .

Finally do try before you buy .
We went out on a Riva 52 and frankly it was shocking from a slamming pov .

Any more advice just shout .

* Had two previous 5 y extensions and I understand another is in gestation .

Thank you again for yet more useful information. I hadn't considered the French permis de mer option, worth considering, I reckon I could just about understand, particularly with more boating experience.
I have been impressed with Sunseeker although it was a bit of whatever your question the answer is Yes at the beginning, the more I got to know, I realised that it could be backed up, and incidentally I'm sure they recommended Danny to see to a lot of the necessary bits to making the boating hassle-free.
Funnily enough we viewed the Manhattan at la Rague which I had cycled past but not noticed before, a nice little marina although I think La Napoule feels a better fit.
Agree on the family boat use - less weeks liveaboard but I like the options and something to grow into.
And yes in no rush so looking at the different boats whilst initially overwhelming, really does seem to help make the choice.
All appreciated.

 

[drtyrttnscndrl]

Wow must be exiting , one question if you are going to live in uk and boat in sof , after 2021 will you be able to take dog like you could with dog pasport.

Who knows at the moment, like a lot of things, despite it only being 3 months away, nothing has been agreed (unless you know something?). The next time we bring her is unlikely to be until April at the earliest due to the quarantine situation in the UK