A bad sail boat

[jimi]

1)A bad sail boat is one that dissuades those new to boating from sailing all together.

Discuss!

2)Most keeled sailboats have 6 feet or more of draft and are heavy. This means that they will hit bottom before the crew can wade to safety ashore. In power boating, when there is a seaworthiness problem, you head for the beach, ground the vessel, and thereby save both the vessel and crew. This is not usually possible with deep keeled boats because they will topple while grounding and can topple in breakers that in time will pound the vessel to oblivion. An exception are the newer fixed fin keels that are designed to break away in a grounding.

Discuss!

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/p11.htm>Other material may be found here</A>

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by jimi on 29/09/2004 09:39 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[snowleopard]

disagree entirely

a bad skipper is the one who puts off a newcomer, whether by shouting at them, taking them out in conditions unsuited to the boat (f4 in a dinghy or mac 26?) or scaring them by bad seamanship.

the RCD actually tries to specify what boats are suitable for what conditions which would be a great idea if it weren't enforced by our bunch of jobsworths who value rules above common sense!

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[StugeronSteve]

For a newcomer to sailing to have any confidence whatsoever his vessel must have:
Break away keel/rudder arrangement (2 breakaway rudders preferred).
At least sufficient power to drive said vessel well above the high water mark on any beach that skipper may consider suitable for the purpose of saving his craft.
Sufficiently light for skipper and crew to be able to carry said vessel back to marina, thus saving embarrassing recovery costs that might dissuade skipper from going sailing in the first place. Where crew are elderly, or otherwise incapable of light lifting tasks, wheels would be advantageous in order to allow the vessel to be driven home. This would also make vessel simpler to park in marinas, after all it is so much easier to steer through wheels rather than rudder.
Interior of vessel should be lightly appointed so has to deter any desire in crew to stay aboard vessel following grounding.

<hr width=100% size=1>Think I'll draw some little rabbits on my head, from a distance they might be mistaken for hairs.

 

[Stemar]

It's not true that a deep keeled boat will necessarily be pounded to oblivion when beached. In Heavy Weather Sailing, the author describes one Skipper, I think during in the Fastnet storm, who deliberately beached his boat broadside on. The waves washed the boat up the beach and the keel kept it from being washed back. From memory, there were no injuries among the crew, and the boat only suffered minor damage. I will confess that I wouldn't like to try this with an AWB, though!

Another point is that the mobo's seaworthiness is likely to be called into question long before a sailing boat's, and is quite likely to involve the loss of motive power, in which case the mobo will be driven sideways onto the beach. Not with me on board, thank you very much!


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[IanPoole2]

You can ram any boat up a beach - even in 6 foot of water you should be able to make the beach.

End of the day Save yourselves - Stuff the boat.

Mind you - MOBO probably going so fast they'd probably cream all the bathers.

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[AndrewB]

Beaching a yacht in bad weather.

Thanks Jimi, certainly a good site to kick off the arguments. Though I do think that it should come with a major health warning for any newcomer who takes it too seriously.

Couldn't spot the quotation about beaching a yacht as a heavy weather strategy. Presumably this means on a lee shore since it refers to breakers. I have always regarded this as a total no-no after reading Maurice Griffiths' yarn in 'Magic of the Swatchways' where an inexperienced skipper proposes this with his flat-bottomed barge-yacht.

This is NOT a matter of saving yourself at the cost of the boat, as attempting to beach is dangerous to life and limb. I expect several here will know what happens if you try it with a centre-board dinghy in a strongish on-shore breeze: without care, you don't actually quite reach the beach. Instead, the following wind and the shore-break combine to broach and roll the boat, the crew are tossed out into the shallows and then the boat comes crashing down on their heads. Of course, with practice and skill in a dinghy or windsurfer, or with a purpose-designed surf-boat, it can be made to look a very stylish move. But this belies its danger, certainly in a larger yacht.

I'd be most interested to hear of any actual experiences of runnning a yacht or power-boat (McGregor 26 sized or above) onto a lee shore as a heavy weather tactic - say F7 or more.

 

[jimi]

erm personally I'd stay as far away from a beach as possible .. its a shit or bust no return option! Please check out the link on the initial post for further gems!

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[AndrewB]

Too true! (see my earlier post). And if you are being driven ashore regardless in big waves - jump well clear before the boat enters the shore-break or hits the rocks.

 

[snowleopard]

detachable rudder?

in peterhead on a rough night, the lifeboat towed in a singlehander in a sub-25 footer and tied it up alongside us. we brought the skipper on board for a warm and he told us his story.

he had just bought the boat and was new to sailing. the previous day he had lost control and opted to put the boat on the beach. he described sitting in the cockpit up to his waist in water as the seas broke over the boat. in the morning he had managed to get it re-floated, minus rudder. he figured he could still steer using the outboard so carried on.... until the outboard fell off its bracket leaving hin drifting somewhere off the NE coast. he had a vhf on board and a gps so called the coastguard. the position he read off the gps put him near peterhead so they launched a lifeboat from there but they eventually found him off aberdeen.

he was planning to go to the med,via the west coast but was too late for the caledonian canal as it was now october. last we heard he had decided to continue his journey down the east coast.

the boat was perfectly ok as a day sailer or occasional weekender in sheltered waters and wouldn't have frightened granny. the way he used it frightened me just to think about it!

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[StugeronSteve]

Re: detachable rudder?

Resilient little b****r, wonder where he is now?

<hr width=100% size=1>Think I'll draw some little rabbits on my head, from a distance they might be mistaken for hairs.

 

[tcm]

Re: up the beach at 20 knots

I've done this. Well, actually, i had it done to me. Can't have been more than F4-4/5 though. A ferry dingy that we thought would stop at a dinghy pontoon on a beach straightened up to perpendicular and whammed up a beach. No warning to pasengers cowering in the rib hanging on saying heehe it looks as thiough he's going up the beach erm cripes hah er blimminek! The driver was french, obviously.

This was only a 6 metre rib with single outboard. It's important to be planing upon reaching the beach. The braking effect is very significant, so of course you hardly make any distance up the beach - the boat gets clear of the waves though, and then crumps over to one side.

Only really feasible in a rib if you want the thing to work again anytime soon. And only feasible with an outboard that gives speed to plane and that kicks up and/or can be lifted, otherwise very knackered props and instant clogging of seawater strainers. And only feasible on a sandy beach that one knows reasonably well. And only feasible with a cheap boat that you don't mind crucnhing away at the hull a fair bit. So, a rib OR a 2nd hand macgregor wd be okay, imho. Another time in fair weather I did it myself in a jet rib which clogged the strainers, so we won't be doing that again.

A powerboat with any freeboard though, would fall very heavily to one side, and for a non-rib powerboat with interior fitout and no sponsons to check the tipping over, the boat would very likely be a write-off, or near writeoff, i wd have thought....



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[jimi]

Re: up the beach at 20 knots

Did hear a tall story once about a racing yacht that whacked its fin off(Gurnard or Bembridge ledge) when racing under spinnaker. With water filling the boat the skipper ran the boat up on the beach under spinnaker & main. Apparently the bow ended up 10 yards from the pub door and the crew disembarked, wandered in and ordered a round. Lovely story but doubt if there's any truth in it at all.

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[tcm]

Re: up the beach at 20 knots

yeah, I don't believe that the crew would ever order a round but would hang about and wait for the skipper, surely?

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[flaming]

Re: up the beach at 20 knots

The original full pelt did something similar at a windy cowes week. Story goes that the skipper summoned a low loader and a crane. Hoisted the boat onto the low loader, trucked back to cowes and went racing the next day.

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[ParaHandy]

this sounds very good and would you consider a "strap-on" aero-engine which could simplify several of the manoeuvers you're envisaging? there's a boat made with such a device (glorified rib, really, but has potential). very useful not only if one is unfortunate enough to run aground but also when there's no wind.

Technical Tip:-
of course, when aground, you point the twirling thing up to 'lift' (eg vertical lift-off) the boat off the rocks/sand/shingle etc

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[flaming]

Re: up the beach at 20 knots

You've clearly never seen the mad desire for beer common amongst nearly all racing crews as soon (if not sooner) as a decent result is out of the question!

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[AlexL]

Sounds good to me, obviously the McG 26 ist trying to be 1/2 sail yacht 1/2 motor boat, so perhaps 1/2 yacht 1/2 helicopter would be better, surely its fairly easy to fit a rotor to the top of the mast, and it could be used as the windex when sailing.

Luverly Jubbly.

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[jimi]

... and as a generator when stationary (or motoring at 20 knots)!

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[ParaHandy]

surely the boom could double as the rotor? the motor would only need attaching to the base of the mast with suitable pulley (rigging is just a minor difficulty although once the rotor - boom - is up to speed, centrifigal force would keep the mast up or is that gyroscopic effect .. whatever).

very soft landings are guaranteed as the spinnaker could be deployed at some point in the descent especially as auto-rotation might be difficult.

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[StugeronSteve]

Seen the flying ribby thing in action, wonder it didn't cause a bit of a shunt off the RYS, all eyes looking up, as the pilot/skipper/looney wizzed back and forth over Bramble Bank.

Maybe a hybrid flying rib/autogyro would do the trick, although I'm sure a MacDuff would be cheaper.

<hr width=100% size=1>Think I'll draw some little rabbits on my head, from a distance they might be mistaken for hairs.