12 knots in a Sadler 29

[DJE]

We had a Sadler 29 for 15 years. She once maintained 10 to 11 knots for several hours but she was under tow behind Bembridge Lifeboat. At that speed the stern squats so deep that a lot of water comes in the cockpit drains. Myself and a lifeboatman lowered our eleven-year-old son over the transom so that he could bung up the drains with J-Cloths!

In more normal times on a fast reach with the cruising chute up she would maintain 6 to 6.5 knots and occasionally surf at up to 8 knots. 12 knots through the water under sail - no chance!

 

[dunedin]

We had a Sadler 29 for 15 years. She once maintained 10 to 11 knots for several hours but she was under tow behind Bembridge Lifeboat. At that speed the stern squats so deep that a lot of water comes in the cockpit drains. Myself and a lifeboatman lowered our eleven-year-old son over the transom so that he could bung up the drains with J-Cloths!

In more normal times on a fast reach with the cruising chute up she would maintain 6 to 6.5 knots and occasionally surf at up to 8 knots. 12 knots through the water under sail - no chance!

As an aside …….. why in heavens name would a lifeboat tow a yacht at that ridiculous speed? Must be perhaps 10 times the force on the tow rope and attachments, seems entirely unseamanlike.

 

[DJE]

As an aside …….. why in heavens name would a lifeboat tow a yacht at that ridiculous speed? Must be perhaps 10 times the force on the tow rope and attachments, seems entirely unseamanlike.

It was flat water and once we'd dealt with the drains all felt quite safe. We had the lifeboat mechanic and assistant on board the yacht, the coxswain requested an increase in speed and I agreed. I didn't want to keep the lifeboat crew (and their recovery crew at the station) away from their day jobs any longer than necessary. We kept an eye on our end of the tow line and all was well. Sadlers are blessed with some pretty substantial deck fittings.

 

[penfold]

Utterly irresponsible to tow at hull speed, never mind beyond it; the shock loads that would be imposed if the tow helm loses control would result in broken cleats if you are lucky, snapped towlines can kill. 80% hull speed is as fast as any responsible towmaster should attempt.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I’m a bit surprised at the lifeboat towing at that sort of speed, unless there was a specific reason such as another urgent which sounds unlikely as the post indicates several hours of towing.
As with Graham 376 #4 we once saw 11.5 kts register on the log on our Foxterrier during the RTI whilst sliding down a rather large wave and just before we broached.

 

[capnsensible]

Well I have a 47 year old Nicholson 55, and for what seemed like half an hour, but was probably ten minutes, long enough, though, to call it a sustained speed, at around three in the morning, with a clean bottom, flying a medium jib and nothing else, heading north in the flat water of the Downs, in the veer of a gale, the GPS showed ten knots, the log showed ten and a bit knots and the wind speed indicator showed forty knots from very fine on the port quarter, as I tried hard to remember everything I had read or been told about steering fast downwind, because this was outside my experience.

Like a wise horse sensing an inexperienced rider, the boat behaved perfectly. She settled into the trough between the bow and the stern waves. She could do this all day.

Then the wind needle dropped back to thirty something, and the other two needles dropped back into single figures.

I don’t suppose that will happen again, for me. I’m sure she has done that speed in the past, with a kite up, a strong crew and a better helmsman, but that’s my experience.

Exceptional yachts. The first blue water passage I made was on Broadsword......actually British Soldier at the time. Had quite a lot of heavy airs. With iirc 3 reefs and a no. 3 genoa, I regularly steered at 11 knots with bursts up to 15 on the ship's log.
On that trip I conquered seasickness and am no longer bothered by it. There were also some epic hangovers after port pit stops, but I've learned nothing from that!

 

[Kukri]

Exceptional yachts. The first blue water passage I made was on Broadsword......actually British Soldier at the time. Had quite a lot of heavy airs. With iirc 3 reefs and a no. 3 genoa, I regularly steered at 11 knots with bursts up to 15 on the ship's log.
On that trip I conquered seasickness and am no longer bothered by it. There were also some epic hangovers after port pit stops, but I've learned nothing from that!

Originally “Quailo III” then British Soldier then Broadsword and now Quailo III again. Is in exceptionally good hands and lives on the Hamble. Has acquired a carbon mast since I took this snap!

 

[Wansworth]

Originally “Quailo III” then British Soldier then Broadsword and now Quailo III again. Is in exceptionally good hands and lives on the Hamble. Has acquired a carbon mast since I took this snap!

View attachment 139278

Magnificent?

 

[NDG]

Originally “Quailo III” then British Soldier then Broadsword and now Quailo III again. Is in exceptionally good hands and lives on the Hamble. Has acquired a carbon mast since I took this snap!

View attachment 139278

British Soldier was also the yacht I did one of my first offshore passages in, Southampton to Lisbon. Fond memories and a fantastic boat ?.

 

[Daydream believer]

We once saw 10.5kts in a Centaur, just before we broached

I can well believe that
My mate reckoned that he broached at 11 kts in his Centaur, but it turned out that he was towing it round the North Circular & skidded on the roundabout at the junction with the A10

 

[capnsensible]

Originally “Quailo III” then British Soldier then Broadsword and now Quailo III again. Is in exceptionally good hands and lives on the Hamble. Has acquired a carbon mast since I took this snap!

View attachment 139278

There was still a name plaque in the saloon showing that. Our passage was from Horta to Gosport and our final stop was in Cherbourg. We saw a chap on the dock eagerly walking back and forth. After a chat, turns out that he was the original owner so duly invited aboard for drinks.

Fascinating chap. Early in his ownership, he and his friend completed a two handed round Britain race. Bearing in mind the basic navigation.....charts and RDF it was quite a trip. And the biggie....changing sails, no woosy furler for them! Having spent a lot of time on the foredeck of Nic 55's changing headsails, I can reveal that they are big and heavy. Especially the no.2 Genoa. I've struggled with four of us. Oh and that forward hatch weighs about as much as an elephant too...

Cap duly doffed to a fine sailor. And hangover gained.

 

[capnsensible]

I see in the picture that the foredeck has been suitably refitted with a sensible hatch now that you don't have to drag enormous wet lumps on deck.

 

[DownWest]

Way back at Burnham Week, we were on a run down river after the start. Concentrating on ahead, until one of us looked behind and clocked the mayhem of a big line squall devastating the fleet astern. Too late to do anything, we (27ft hard chine design) just held on as it lifted us up on the plane and we wizzed through the assorted classes right up to the front of the fleet with the big class one boys. As we passed one, they inadvertently gybed and the boom shattered, crew ducking all over.
We completed the course on a rather lonely sea, but no gun, as we were so far ahead, they assumed we had given up, like most of the fleets.
No idea what speed we were doing, but foam every where and the vibration from the rudder was enough to blur one's vision, so likely over 12 kts

And; A client/friend, who had one of the 20ft designs, also hard chine, entered the Cinq Ports cross channel race. He got it just right and planed nearly the whole way, beating the fleet on time, outright, let alone corrected. Again, the officials at the finish didn't think he was in the race, expecting much bigger yachts. Mind you, his wife never sailed again..

 

[Frogmogman]

My aunt’s late brother was repairs manager at Camper and Nicholson when Quailo III was built as an admiral’s cup contender. I remember visiting the yard when she was on build, and coming away with a pocket full of “Quailo is quicker” stickers.

FWIW, I think Quailo, Racer and Lutine were the prettiest of all of the 55s (no disrespect, Kukri).

 

[Daydream believer]

Way back at Burnham Week, we were on a run down river after the start. Concentrating on ahead, until one of us looked behind and clocked the mayhem of a big line squall devastating the fleet astern. Too late to do anything, we (27ft hard chine design) just held on as it lifted us up on the plane and we wizzed through the assorted classes right up to the front of the fleet with the big class one boys. As we passed one, they inadvertently gybed and the boom shattered, crew ducking all over.
We completed the course on a rather lonely sea, but no gun, as we were so far ahead, they assumed we had given up, like most of the fleets.
No idea what speed we were doing, but foam every where and the vibration from the rudder was enough to blur one's vision, so likely over 12 kts

Not a Dave Thomas designed Hydro, owned by Ray Clair, was it?

 

[DownWest]

Not a Dave Thomas designed Hydro, owned by Ray Clair, was it?

Nope; A Fanfare, 27ft hard chine in ply with plate in shallow fin keel with bulb ballast. Designed by my father. This would have been circa '63, by which time GRP was beginning to be the favoured material. Only about 7 built.

 

[Concerto]

Is 12 knots possible in a Sadler 29? Yes, from my racing experience.

In 1970 my parents had bought a new Nicholson 30, it was the boat at the London Show, and we raced it hard. In august of that year we did the EAORA Harwich Ostend race. The wind at the start was NW 15 knots true. The course was exactly SE, so a dead run. Being only 30ft, we were in the second start, 15 minutes after the big boys. Well we started with full spinnaker and full main. However the wind increased a lot, but we held the rig. Halfway across we passed the largest yacht, a Nicholson 43. We do not know what speed we were doing as the B&G log was stuck on 10 knots, the windspeed was also stuck on 48 knots. Adding those together meant the wind was well in excess of 58 knots, probably over 65 knots. The Nich 43 estimated we were doing 14 to 16 knots. The power in the rig was immense and it required 3 people on the helm to keep on course, 2 to windward and myself to lee with two feet. As we approached the coast we got a wave wrong and put the mast in the water. Chaos reigned, but soon sorted and we finished under white sails. Despite this we came 2nd overall out of 70 yachts.

The following year we did the EAORA Round the Goodwins race in gale force winds. We set our star cut spinnaker this time and were went on the plane again.

So yes in my opinion it could be possible for a Sadler 29 to do 12 knots. However you need extreme winds to set a spinnaker and a crew who know exactly what to do to stay as safe as possible.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Is 12 knots possible in a Sadler 29? Yes, from my racing experience.

In 1970 my parents had bought a new Nicholson 30, it was the boat at the London Show, and we raced it hard. In august of that year we did the EAORA Harwich Ostend race. The wind at the start was NW 15 knots true. The course was exactly SE, so a dead run. Being only 30ft, we were in the second start, 15 minutes after the big boys. Well we started with full spinnaker and full main. However the wind increased a lot, but we held the rig. Halfway across we passed the largest yacht, a Nicholson 43. We do not know what speed we were doing as the B&G log was stuck on 10 knots, the windspeed was also stuck on 48 knots. Adding those together meant the wind was well in excess of 58 knots, probably over 65 knots. The Nich 43 estimated we were doing 14 to 16 knots. The power in the rig was immense and it required 3 people on the helm to keep on course, 2 to windward and myself to lee with two feet. As we approached the coast we got a wave wrong and put the mast in the water. Chaos reigned, but soon sorted and we finished under white sails. Despite this we came 2nd overall out of 70 yachts.

The following year we did the EAORA Round the Goodwins race in gale force winds. We set our star cut spinnaker this time and were went on the plane again.

So yes in my opinion it could be possible for a Sadler 29 to do 12 knots. However you need extreme winds to set a spinnaker and a crew who know exactly what to do to stay as safe as possible.

"Safe" sounds like a very generous description! Sounds to me more like "just this side of absolute catastrophe, and if anything at all breaks, we're dead"!

Of course, if you have enough power in the rig, hull speed doesn't mean anything. But it does mean that the forces involved are going up as some high power of the speed - so doing 12 knots on a boat with a nominal hull speed of 6 probably means that you're putting at least 4 (and probably a lot more) times the stress on the rigging and steering than at hull speed.

 

[Concerto]

"Safe" sounds like a very generous description! Sounds to me more like "just this side of absolute catastrophe, and if anything at all breaks, we're dead"!

Of course, if you have enough power in the rig, hull speed doesn't mean anything. But it does mean that the forces involved are going up as some high power of the speed - so doing 12 knots on a boat with a nominal hull speed of 6 probably means that you're putting at least 4 (and probably a lot more) times the stress on the rigging and steering than at hull speed.

It was great fun that lasted for about 6 hours. When racing you always push the limits way beyond a cruising yacht. Now days I am little bit more sedate, but not much.

 

[Supertramp]

Is 12 knots possible in a Sadler 29? Yes, from my racing experience.

In 1970 my parents had bought a new Nicholson 30, it was the boat at the London Show, and we raced it hard. In august of that year we did the EAORA Harwich Ostend race. The wind at the start was NW 15 knots true. The course was exactly SE, so a dead run. Being only 30ft, we were in the second start, 15 minutes after the big boys. Well we started with full spinnaker and full main. However the wind increased a lot, but we held the rig. Halfway across we passed the largest yacht, a Nicholson 43. We do not know what speed we were doing as the B&G log was stuck on 10 knots, the windspeed was also stuck on 48 knots. Adding those together meant the wind was well in excess of 58 knots, probably over 65 knots. The Nich 43 estimated we were doing 14 to 16 knots. The power in the rig was immense and it required 3 people on the helm to keep on course, 2 to windward and myself to lee with two feet. As we approached the coast we got a wave wrong and put the mast in the water. Chaos reigned, but soon sorted and we finished under white sails. Despite this we came 2nd overall out of 70 yachts.

The following year we did the EAORA Round the Goodwins race in gale force winds. We set our star cut spinnaker this time and were went on the plane again.

So yes in my opinion it could be possible for a Sadler 29 to do 12 knots. However you need extreme winds to set a spinnaker and a crew who know exactly what to do to stay as safe as possible.

I'm beginning to understand your very impressive passage speeds on your current trip......!