100mph in Southampton Water

[lw395]

That is fine but which part do you disagree with?

1)That he has significant qualifications and experience.
2)That someone who understands and respects the risks does not put others at avoidable needless risk.
....!

But it is largely acceptable to put oneself and to some extent others at 'needless risk'.
Every private pilot does it, don't you think?

More of them crash than do powerboats.

 

[pmagowan]

But it is largely acceptable to put oneself and to some extent others at 'needless risk'.
Every private pilot does it, don't you think?

More of them crash than do powerboats.

No, 'needless avoidable' risk. So, for example; I want to fly a plane. There is a risk to that which is neither needless or avoidable if I wish to enjoy that activity. There are loads of needless avoidable risks such as chosing not to wear a seatbelt, flying in a no-fly zone, putting the wrong fuel in the tank, not getting lessons etc etc etc.

As I have said, it is not the going at 100mph that is the problem. That can be done in a relatively safe way. It is the going at 100mph without checking the course, with unexperienced crew, without using any available safety equipment that is the problem. If we can't see the problem because we are blinded by our bias to boating then others will regulate for us.

Simple risk analysis:

I am going to be travelling fast in a boat with inexperienced crew.

1) There might be other wster users that get in the way
a) I will inform the local authorities so that they can warn others

2)There might be hazzards on the course
a) I will run over the course at a reasonable speed so that I can check for hazzards prior to going at full throttle

3)I might face an unavoidable and unpredictable hazzard and crash
a) I will make sure that everyone is wearing appropriate safety equipment so that they are protected in this eventuality

Result: Safe day on the water!

Alternative:
Regulations for speed, type of vehicle and safety equipment taking all of that out of my control and severely restricting what I and others can do on shared water

 

[dom]

But it is largely acceptable to put oneself and to some extent others at 'needless risk'.
Every private pilot does it, don't you think?

More of them crash than do powerboats.

Fair point; but as a consequence the regulation is constantly increasing for private pilots and London is a case in point. I'd imagine power boaters would collectively wish to avoid such restrictions if possible.

 

[Triassic]

Motorway would be a bit limp.
Have a look at real men's racing, IOM TT, 200mph on a B road.

Indeed, but they are still riding the road, and it's closed to other traffic. I don't know what more I can say without going down the silly route that pmacgowan appears to be advocating. Speaking as someone who has raced motorcycles for over 25 years both on circuits and closed roads I can only assure you that it requires a completely different skill set than those that I used in my day job. One is all about reading the road, the other is concerned with what is on and around it.

 

[pmagowan]

Indeed, but they are still riding the road, and it's closed to other traffic. I don't know what more I can say without going down the silly route that pmacgowan appears to be advocating. Speaking as someone who has raced motorcycles for over 25 years both on circuits and closed roads I can only assure you that it requires a completely different skill set than those that I used in my day job. One is all about reading the road, the other is concerned with what is on and around it.

Yes, it was very silly of me to think that there may have been someone more skillful than you out there, or that skill does not excuse stupid or needlessly risky behaviour. It is funny how they check the circuit and close it when racing. I wonder is that a sensible thing to do to avoid a needless risk?

remember folks, it is not silly for Triassic to drive fast or to make this analagous to racing boats but it is silly for lewis hamilton to drive fast or to make this analagous to racing boats! Hmm

 

[thecommander]

It's irresponsible and illegal for the public to drive more than 70 mph on public roads. The people advocating increasing speed limits and flaunting the law tend to be idiots and/or drivers of a certain German manufacturer who on mass believe it's responsible to drive at 95mph, tailgate and harass drivers sticking to the speed limit.

Untill you know someone who has been killed by a speeding driver, continue believing your tripe.

 

[Resolution]

Guys, guys, guys! This is getting a bit too tetchy and perhaps drifting too far off course. On the basis of a short report we cannot know everything that happened that day, yet we are all (self included) working to conclusions that inevitably differ in some respects. Let's see if we can at least agree on the key parts.

That is fine but which part do you disagree with?

1)That he has significant qualifications and experience.
The driver definitely had loads of experience in racing these kind of high speed boats. Pretty much up there on a level with Lewis Hamilton in the racing car world. His judgement as to the handling of these boats is clearly way above our judgement.
2)That someone who understands and respects the risks does not put others at avoidable needless risk.
Maybe, maybe not. Top racers tend to be alpha males, risk takers, and not always very concerned about the welfare of others. This is a generalisation, I don't think any of us have personal knowledge of this driver. On the subject of harnesses and helmets I am surprised that they were not being used, even for a short test run like this. In the motor car racing world use of helmets and harnesses would be virtually automatic.
3)That he could have gone out and safely done 100mph.
Well he did. It was on the way back in, and at an undisclosed lower speed that he crashed.
4)That he crashed
And how!
5)That we can learn something from it [
I]100% right. A spectacular and damaging accident like this does attract attention, both from the media and from various regulators. Just as the motorway speed limits were imposed as a consequence of hairy chested sports car drivers pushing a bit too hard, I greatly fear that this accident may produce a reaction from ABP and others, in the form of some restrictions on our present freedom .[/I]

Two final comments:
1. "Comfort zone" - can we agree that the driver was well in his comfort zone in driving these craft at these speeds, but that once the accident happened he was as distressed as any father would be when their son's life is threatened. I do think it is insensitive of us to labour this point.
2. There has been little focus on what caused the swerve to become a hook and then a roll. Not being a powerboat racer myself I am surprised that a top racer would make a handling error like this. Am I missing something?
Peter

 

[dunedin]

Two final comments:
1. "Comfort zone" - can we agree that the driver was well in his comfort zone in driving these craft at these speeds, but that once the accident happened he was as distressed as any father would be when their son's life is threatened. I do think it is insensitive of us to labour this point.

I think the point regarding this for many of us is that what the driver (and some posters here) may have seen as a "comfort zone" was in fact a blind "complacency zone".
Hence thinking can do race speeds in a public waterway, without a guard boat, with passengers along for the ride and not using the race safety gear of helmets and seat restraints. Very much sounds like complacency zone. Leave there.

 

[chrishscorp]

I was a little surprised there is no speed limit in that area of southampton water.
I would have thought a recce of the course first with a spotter boat at the other end of the course would have been usefull simply because of the huge variance of speed of other water users, appreciate the boat was tested early in the morning when it was quiet. Hopefully a recce of the course would have spotted any errant logs, fishing gear etc etc.

It is good to hear the young man involved has made a full recovery.

 

[chewi]

If we are to respect that the experienced mobo driver was competent to navigate the circumstances, (whatever speed he was actually doing) we would not then expect to find that he could not in fact do so.

That he chose not to deploy the safety harnesses suggests his risk assessment was under par, so it seems he was not competent.

 

[Triassic]

If we are to respect that the experienced mobo driver was competent to navigate the circumstances, (whatever speed he was actually doing) we would not then expect to find that he could not in fact do so.

That he chose not to deploy the safety harnesses suggests his risk assessment was under par, so it seems he was not competent.

Actually his decision not to use the safety harnesses was based on the fact that the two passengers had not completed the necessary training that would help ensure they would be able to extract themselves from them in the event of a turnover.

I suspect that the history of the boat being used extensively in the previous season to carry passengers on high speed runs, and the fact that these passengers would also not have completed the training or used the restraints, would also have influenced his decision.

Still doesn't explain the lack of use of the helmets though.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

From MAIB re:Co-driver
"The co-driver had 35 years’ experience as a powerboat driver and had previously been the chairman of the RYA’s powerboat racing committee. He also had extensive knowledge of the waters of the Solent".
He should have been more aware of the possibilities of the dangers that could be there then! Tw*t!!!!

People who cause pollution in the form of noise like this should be locked up.!!

I was astounded one day after travelling all the way to my boat and out into the Solent for some peaceful sailing, to find a power boat race going on and only a few boat lengths away from other craft in the Western Solent. Bl**dy hooligans!

S.

 

[RichardS]

Actually his decision not to use the safety harnesses was based on the fact that the two passengers had not completed the necessary training that would help ensure they would be able to extract themselves from them in the event of a turnover.

I suspect that the history of the boat being used extensively in the previous season to carry passengers on high speed runs, and the fact that these passengers would also not have completed the training or used the restraints, would also have influenced his decision.

Still doesn't explain the lack of use of the helmets though.

I don't think that his risk assessment that not using the harnesses was safer than using them was correct. Even if you assume that he simply did not have 30 seconds to spare to explain how to remove the harness, the very act of putting the harness on is usually a pretty good indication of how to remove it. In the event of an impact, it seems to me that the danger of being knocked unconscious and therefore having a very reduced chance of survival is a much greater risk than being conscious but having to release the harness.

I agree that helmets would also be very sensible but there might be some resistance to wearing helmets in an enclosed cockpit even though rally and BTCC drivers wear helmets in enclosed cockpits. However, if you said to the crew "we will be travelling at 100mph and I would like you to clip on your harness" I can't imagine anyone saying "no thanks".

I speak as someone who has worn a full 5-point harness in an open racing car and didn't find it that unintuitive.

Richard

 

[CLB]

[/B]
People who cause pollution in the form of noise like this should be locked up.!!


[/B
S.

The same could be said for tw*ts that leave their halyards slapping in a marina, but I would imagine that you conscientiously frap yours every time you leave the boat.

 

[Triassic]

I was astounded one day after travelling all the way to my boat and out into the Solent for some peaceful sailing, to find a power boat race going on and only a few boat lengths away from other craft in the Western Solent. Bl**dy hooligans!

S.

I know, quite shocking that someone else might be out their enjoying themselves on your stretch of water. And as for those other craft going so close to the race.... unbelievable! Perhaps they hadn't heard them coming?

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

The same could be said for tw*ts that leave their halyards slapping in a marina, but I would imagine that you conscientiously frap yours every time you leave the boat.

Mrs S. does that. However, I have had opportunity to go help others who may have forgotten etc.

S.

 

[Daydream believer]

Let me help you understand our legal system. The police investigate and report the facts, and in some cases their opinion. The courts decide on innocence or guilt.

What intrigues me is that members of the public, who make up our juries and reach such decisions are so often prepared to do so without considering any of the evidence at all, let alone seeking to understand it......

Oh come on you are not telling me they let evidence come before important things ---like --sex, religion, colour & country of origin.

 

[Daydream believer]

People who cause pollution in the form of noise like this should be locked up.!!

Yes , Complete with their B..y windmills

 

[Triassic]

Oh come on you are not telling me they let evidence come before important things ---like --sex, religion, colour & country of origin.

I can see how you got your forum name....

 

[chewi]

His comfort zone clearly includes the ability to seriously injure his passenger ? And that same comfort zone extends to not being able to safely evade a hitherto unseen object in the water.

Momentum is a (part) product of the square of the velocity, it's not a linear function. Double the speed, quadruple the momentum; work out the figures for doubling the speed from 10, to 20, then 40, then 80. The driver should lose his licence; there is no excuse for failing to carry out standard assessment and safety procedures; he was the person in charge of the vessel.

pedantic I know but I recall from O level maths that where mass is m and velocity is v

momentum =mv ( ie linear)
kinetic energy = m /2. x v squared ( I cant do the superscripts)

nonetheless it still makes a fast boat like a missile in a calm, whichever you want to measure.