Yanmar Engine failure

[mjth8]

We purchased a new Yanmar 4JH4E diesel engine nine months ago from local Yanmar agents. After only 150 hours use it failed to start although it would crank. The local agents removed the engine to their workshop and stripped it. They informed us that we had put contaminated oil into the engine and this had caused the piston rings to freeze onto the pistons. As it was our fault there would be no claim under the warranty (2 Year). They now tell us that after further investigation we had overcranked the engine and filled it with sea water and this was the cause of the problem! Again there could be no claim under the warranty. Our Moody 376 is in Panama City and we have Faxed Yanmar Japan with our problems but have had no rersponse. Does anyone have any ideas as to how we should proceed from here? <span style="color:red"> </span>

 

[andy_wilson]

1. Soul seaching, are they accurate in their diagnosis. Did you continue to crank without success, and with the seawater inlet open, and risk backfilling the engine from the exhaust?

2. Get a sample of the oil and have it analysed to provide expert opinion.

3. Do you have a sample of any oil you used, I always have some remaining oil which I retain for top-ups. Have that analysed too.

4. Remember B.O.A.T - Break Out Another Thousand. You are going to need it for the re-build, or the lawyers, or both!

 

[Norman_E]

I can see how cranking the engine with the starter motor could get water into the engine but this is a result of the failure of the engine to start rather than the cause of it. Sounds like the agents may be bullshitting you to get out of doing the warranty repair. If the engine did suck in seawater I wonder if it was down to their faulty installation, or some other engine fault which prevented it starting. Did you notice that the oil looked to have a pale coloured scum on it, as engine oil contaminated with water often forms an emulsion with a distinctly scummy appearance. If the oil remained clean then the agent's explanation is a fishy one. Is it possible to get an independant engineer to look at it for you?

 

[mjth8]

Thanks for the reply. We have never needed to crank ther engine for more than about 3 seconds before it started.

 

[duncan]

then if you make that statement in writing and get it witnessed and weritten up by a notary or equivelent I woud submit it in writing to Yanmar and potitely suggest they sort it out.

re the oil, for an engine that age I would assume that you haven't actually had to add any oil to it yet and that all oil additions would have been by a Yanmar agent at instalation and maybe a 50 hour change if it was scheduled/you have done that many hours.

I had a hydraulic steering fluid cooler fail at 22months on my Yanmar - (1) £450 for part (2) for a warantee claim I was asked to submit a full cateloge of dealer servicing including an itemisation of all parts replaced etc etc etc ie barriers barriers barriers - and no I didn't get sorted but resolved it myself with the help of a few friends (on here).

You have to sort the dealer - there are many nice ones but many don't want to know unless they supplied the engine and are providing the regular servicing.

 

[fireball]

I find that dropping into the conversation that you've got a friend in "Trading Standards" helps immensly ...

The best way to argue your case is to sound positive yourself - a few uncertanties in your voice will have them backing you into a corner ...

My first question would be - why wouldn't the engine start after 150hrs to start with - and if you haven't done the maintenance on it then any changes to the system or duff oil is down to them. If you did change the oil (perfectly reasonable thing to do) then I assume your happy that you did it correctly - as suggested, take a sample of any unused oil to check for contamination - cos if it is clean then it got contaminated in the engine - not something within your control.

I don't think the cause of your problem can be overcranking causing it to fill with seawater - because it used to start .... it may be a secondary problem caused by the longer cranking with unsuccessful starting though.

 

[TheBoatman]

[ QUOTE ]
They informed us that we had put contaminated oil into the engine

[/ QUOTE ]

The question is "did you put any oil into the engine" After 150 hours I would be surprised if the engine needed more oil? Yanmar engines are famous for not burning oil!

After all if you didn't put oil in the engine their case falls flat!

Was the installation checked out and passed by one of their reps!

On reflection I think I would adopt the following course of action

Mr Yanmar we purchased one of your engines.

We had it fitted and tested/passed by your certified engineer.

After 150 hours/8 months the engine refused to start.

We shut the sea-cock whilst trying to start the engine and did not hydrualic the engine (as suggested by your agent).

The original tests on the engine (made by your agent) pointed to my having inserted the incorrect oil, which made the piston rings seize, this I refute as the oil was never replaced or topped up by me, and I checked the dipstick according to your manual and no additional oil was required.

Then your agent changed tack and suggested that the engine had been over cranked and water had entered the system - this I refute, as I had closed the sea-cock (according to your manual) whilst trying to start the engine.

I believe that I have followed your manual instructions to the letter and because the engine has done less than 150 hours running and is still with in your warranty period you should either repair or exchange my engine!

 

[RivalRedwing]

A colleague encountered water in the cylinders of a new engine because the installers had omitted a siphon break on the cooling water inlet flow - do you have one (and is it working?)

 

[Mal113]

Why do you not contact Yanmar Europe BV at the following address: -

Brugplein 11
1332 BS Almere - De Vaart
The Netherlands

Tele: - 00 31 36 549 32 00
Fax: - 00 31 36 549 32 09

If as the agent suggests, you overcranked the engine and there was an ingress of water, it would be my best guess the engine would hydraulic as the cylinders took in the water. It all sounds very fishy, contact Yanmar Europe and give them the details.

 

[Sailfree]

Notice the term "engine would hydraulic" on this thread could you expand on that. My understanding is that if overcranked a diesel engine could get sea water in the combustion chamber and bend the con rod or blow the head gasget.

Can someone clarify this for me please?

 

[snowleopard]

The term "hydraulic" is short for "hydraulic lock" where the volume of water in the cylinder is more than the space above the piston at TDC. Because water is incompressable the piston stops dead and the momentum of the flywheel/crankshaft causes something to break. In the case of Yanmar diesels that is usually the con rod which bends.

You can easily find out if you've had a hydraulic lock by measuring the head space above the piston. It is done by removing the injector, inserting a 'plastiguage' which is a strip of plastic that is sqashed by the piston when you turn the engine over. If you use the official stuff you get the clearance by measuring how wide the flattened part is. If you can't get the real thing you can use a length of cored solder and measure the thickness with a vernier/micrometer.

p.s. No one seems to have noticed the comment "Our Moody 376 is in Panama City" in the original post. Puts a different perspective on things.

 

[Norman_E]

"Engine would hydraulic" means that the engine would suffer a hydraulic lock, which occurs when water is sucked in to a cylinder. Water is incompressible, so on the compression stroke the engine reaches a point where it can turn no further. If only the starter motor is turning it, it will probably just stall the motor, but an engine running at speed which sucks in water will suffer catastrophic damage.

 

[mjth8]

!. we have never had to crasnk the engine for nore than about 3 seconds maximum before it started
We have samples of the oil when it was changed. To have it analysed here in Panama will cost $1000.00.
Many thanks for your interest.

 

[mjth8]

Good idea, we've contacted everyone else so we might as well try them.

 

[mikejames]

Re: Yanmar Engine failure/hydraulicing

Air compresses. Water doesnt.
Volume of an engine cylinder at bottom of stroke is say 15 times more than at top of stroke.

Partly fill cylinder with water on the exhaust cycle and the peak gas pressure will increase as the air gets squashed into a smaller volume and gets hotter as well . If the water volume is large enough it will be sufficient to stop the piston rather suddenly.

If you are lucky the engine simply comes to a stop. Otherwise water will be forced anywhere there is a weakness .

Like past piston rings into the oil or removing oil from the bores and damaging them, or bending con rods or blowing gaskets.

As a 4 cylinder engine will run with one non firing cylinder the high pressure peaks may be repeated for quite a while ...

So what could be a stupid problem like someone tripping over a non-resettable fuel shutoff pull-stop then trying to restart the engine can result in this kind of problem. (you had to push the lever back into place on the ball valve that the pull-stop was connected to by a wire.. )

 

[andy_wilson]

Re: Panama City

Why, is the water more or less compressible, or as I would suspect is more to the point, corrosive there?

 

[andy_wilson]

I Have sent you a private message reil test.

 

[Mal113]

You are correct the engine would take water into the cylinders and then on the combustion stoke the piston would try and compress the water and as we know water cannot be compress and so the engine would be damaged i.e. bend con rod etc. This would be discribed as the engine had hydraulic.

As stated earlier I beleive Yanmar Europe should be contacted, if the owner has problems with this then send all the info to me and I will give it to the marketing manager of Yanmar Europe (a buddy of mine)

 

[snowleopard]

Re: Panama City

[ QUOTE ]
Why, is the water more or less compressible, or as I would suspect is more to the point, corrosive there?

[/ QUOTE ]
Presume you mean in Panama? Nothing to do with the fault but a lot to do with the remedy - no good complaining to Yanmar Europe if the boat is in Latin America!

 

[Sailfree]

You have all confirmed what I understood from the term hydraulic and recognise this as a risk if engine cranks but does not start.

I asked as I failed to see the connection with the "hydraulic" and the problem described so thought I may be missing something.

"hydraulic " results in bent con rod or serious failure.

"problem" was engine cranked but failed to start. Cause seems to be gumed up/seized rings and lack of compression. Its what caused the piston ring failure thats required and doubt was expressed that it was contaminated oil.

It does seem strange that all the pistons got gumed up and difficult to see how it can be a design or build fault.

Am I understanding this correctly?