It's official we can now go sailing again!

[Seven Spades]

If you are “sleeping” on your boat then that is where you risk being in breach of the law. Under the Regulations a person cannot be “...outside of the place where they are living without a reasonable excuse”.

The reasonable excuse that the government appear to believe allows boating and sailing is the new paragraph 6(2)(ba) “...to visit a public open space for the purpose of open air recreation....” as this is the change which has led to the specific guidance allowing boating and sailing. Arguably the reasonable excuse under paragraph 6(2)(b) - “exercise” - could also apply. However, if you are “asleep” on your boat it is difficult to see how you argue that you were engaging in exercise!

So, would sleeping on your boat afford you a reasonable excuse under 6(2)(ab)? Well, the government guidance says not, but as rightly pointed out it is only ‘guidance’ and not legally enforceable - although a court is likely to be guided in their decision as to whether your actions were lawful and their interpretation of the legislation by the government guidance (and particularly a lay bench sitting in the magistrates’ court). Personally, I think one issue that could be important is the place your boat is located when you are sleeping. If you are in a marina then it will be more difficult to argue that you are visiting a “public open space for the purpose of recreation”. That is because the interpretation of “public open space” for 6(2)(ab) is found under Regulation 6(5) and in particular is defined as a place “...used for the purpose of recreation by members of the public”. I suspect a court will interpret a marina as more akin to a caravan park and primarily as a place to keep your boat and not a place that is used for the purpose of recreation. However, if you were anchored in a bay, then there is a much stronger argument that you are in a place “used for the purpose of recreation” and which you are “visiting” for “open air recreation to promote you physical and mental health or emotional well-being”.

Therefore, if you are planning on staying on your boat, do it at anchor somewhere pretty, which may afford a defence under the Regulations, but at the very least will make it more difficult for PC Plod to coming knocking on your cabin door !

I broadly do not disagree agree with this assessment. I did say "Anchoring is a normal boating activity so is picking up a mooring". I think the fact that the guidance says "all forms of water sports practiced on open waterways, including sailing..." is pretty clear it isn't qualified. Staying in your own marina is pushing it, but visiting a marina should in fact be permitted, but marinas are entitled to make their own rules.

 

[Mark-1]

Overnighting seems pretty much illegal, to me. However, the idea is to stay away from people. So in practical terms, if you're overnighting somewhere where you're noticed you probably deserve a telling off. Whereas, if you're social distancing well you won't be noticed and won't get a telling off.

I felt the last phase of lockdown was all about blind obeyance of the rules and I willingly went along with that, gold plating the rules. I feel the tone now is that we're being given a bit of leeway to decide for ourselves how to achieve the objective of staying away from each other.

I could be wrong, and often am.

 

[Babylon]

That's right, Mark, we're being given a bit of leeway, being credited with having some ability to discern for ourselves what the risks are, whilst remaining essentially within the spirit of the guidance.

The risk to anyone in taking your own yacht off its mooring in fine weather, single-handing to some creek and anchoring there for a few nights is close to 0% of nothing, and I'd like to see what's left of the police and the courts really wasting their own time trying to apply the letter of the law (which doesn't actually exist) in such a case.

 

[Carib]

I agree Babylon. The legislation itself says nothing about overnighting, or times of day.

It is only in the guidance, which is not legally enforceable, that we see a prohibition on staying overnight 'in a second/another home' (and this phrase is used a few times across different documents). I do not believe a boat is a second home.

Guidance specific to outdoor recreation spaces and sport yesterday repeated this phrase. Surely, given that the context of the guidance is outdoor spaces/recreation, the lack of any clear statement that this applies to e.g. boats, campervans, tents, is intentional. If the intention was to stop this kind of overnighting, why not simply say so? It's an obvious thing to have considered.

In terms of the 'spirit' of the guidelines, second home use can spread Covid within a small community. You can see why that is undesirable. It is a completely different scenario to spending a night on a boat quite possibly not even touching shore. I'm perfectly happy to follow guidelines which have the intended effect of stopping the spread of infection, but not an incorrect interpretation of unenforceable guidance which by any view has zero impact on Covid.

Unfortunately, it seems that the RYA and British Marine have taken a fairly self-defeating line on this, rather skating over the obvious argument above and meekly accepting that the 'second home' guidance applies to boats. Cue marinas not opening to visitors, even though it's easy to see how these could operate with full social distancing. The danger with taking this line is that they will logically now have to wait until the Govt specifically says second home use is permitted - good luck waiting for that.

 

[Seven Spades]

The RYA has not made any statements accepting the sleeping onboard being banned. It is harbours and marinas who have trotted out this line. These are the same people who yesterday were still saying that boating isn't allowed.

 

[Carib]

Unfortunately they have: "There are no restrictions on how far you can travel to get to the countryside. However, you cannot leave your home to ‘stay at another home for a holiday or other purpose’ which means that staying overnight on a boat is not permitted. "

RYA welcomes Government guidance on outdoor recreation

 

[HappyAfloat]

If you want to stay away from your main home overnight take up fishing. According to the Angling Trust they have successfully lobbied the government to allow night fishing.

Angling Trust Latest News

 

[RobbieW]

Latest from the Hamble HM.....
++++++++++
Dear Mooring Holders,

With many of you returning to your boats after a long-enforced absence, you will no doubt have a number of questions about some of the detail of what has been allowed following the lifting in restrictions on Wednesday.



We have taken emerging guidance from Government as it has become available, some of it this morning, and distilled it into our own guidance note that is being issued to marinas and yards, as well as sailing clubs. It will be on our website later today.



The note is self-explanatory and much of it reflects what I have already told you. There is also some important new guidance for those who may be hoping or planning to stay overnight on their boats. Many will be disappointed that overnight stays on vessels are being treated in the same way that visiting a second home would be. That means that you will not be able to stay overnight on vessels either in marinas or on mid-stream moorings.



I know this will come as a disappointment and present a number of practical challenges for those coming from further afield. These are, however, centrally issued rules which apply in England as of now. I thought early sight would help those planning to travel.



Thank you again for your understanding and I promise to keep you updated as further changes are made.



Best wishes

Jason



Jason Scott

Marine Director and Harbour Master



River Hamble Harbour Authority
++++++++++

 

[Lightwave395]

So you could fish all night from your boat ?

 

[Carib]

So you could fish all night from your boat ?

Well, I've got a crabbing line somewhere.. Not sure being awake is a prerequisite for fishing..

 

[Blue Sunray]

Latest from the Hamble HM.....
++++++++++
Dear Mooring Holders,

With many of you returning to your boats after a long-enforced absence, you will no doubt have a number of questions about some of the detail of what has been allowed following the lifting in restrictions on Wednesday.

We have taken emerging guidance from Government as it has become available, some of it this morning, and distilled it into our own guidance note that is being issued to marinas and yards, as well as sailing clubs. It will be on our website later today.

The note is self-explanatory and much of it reflects what I have already told you. There is also some important new guidance for those who may be hoping or planning to stay overnight on their boats. Many will be disappointed that overnight stays on vessels are being treated in the same way that visiting a second home would be. That means that you will not be able to stay overnight on vessels either in marinas or on mid-stream moorings.

I know this will come as a disappointment and present a number of practical challenges for those coming from further afield. These are, however, centrally issued rules which apply in England as of now. I thought early sight would help those planning to travel.

Thank you again for your understanding and I promise to keep you updated as further changes are made.



Best wishes

Jason



Jason Scott

Marine Director and Harbour Master



River Hamble Harbour Authority
++++++++++

Not his call to make, nor can he enforce it.

He's back in jobsworth/Warden Hodges mode.

 

[Seven Spades]

Please all write to the RYA and point out:-

If the fishing community can get permission to camp by rivers why can’t we anchor in them or estuaries etc. The RYA should have more influence than national angling organisations.

 

[BabySharkDooDooDooDooDoo]

Not his call to make, nor can he enforce it.

He's back in jobsworth/Warden Hodges mode.

Better fit some black out blinds and then they won't know you are on board

 

[HappyAfloat]

Please all write to the RYA and point out:-

If the fishing community can get permission to camp by rivers why can’t we anchor in them or estuaries etc. The RYA should have more influence than national angling organisations.

Angling Trust annual subscription is also cheaper than the RYA

 

[Iain C]

It doesn't say anything on the government website around recreation about not sleeping aboard, even though it does on the RYA one.

Guidance for the public on the phased return of outdoor sport and recreation

RYA welcomes Government guidance on outdoor recreation

It does talk about motor boating, so it's clearly not necessarily talking about "exercise", it's referring to "recreation". I absolutely understand why marinas don't want hordes of people descending who just like to sit on their boats all weekend and read the paper, but I cannot see how anyone can realistically point to a piece of government legislation that stops you sleeping aboard either under way on passage, at anchor, or because you are working on your boat but waiting for the tide (drying out for example).

I cannot see how the words ‘stay at another home for a holiday or other purpose’ can interpret a boat as a home. My boat has no address, no services connected, is not liable for council tax or rubbish disposal, and occasionally goes racing. It's absolutely not a home. Although, ironically, if it actually was a "home", I can stay on it no questions asked!

Seems a bit daft and I can't believe the RYA have taken this view. Surely you should either be able to sail and sleep aboard, or no access to boats at all, not some daft halfway house that makes no sense. It's up to marinas if they want to allow visitors or not, and the fact that many craft are still ashore, many people will choose not to travel and sail anyway, pubs and restaurants are closed and racing suspended will mean that the amount of sailing happening will very much self-regulate anyway.

I think common sense needs to prevail here...staying overnight on a swinging mooring with family members presents way less risk than either driving backwards and forwards to home, going cycling or food shopping!

 

[Carib]

My thoughts exactly. Meanwhile, going to a garden centre is expressly permitted - yet clearly does involve proximity with other people.

 

[Babylon]

Meanwhile, going to a garden centre is expressly permitted - yet clearly does involve proximity with other people.

I try to avoid proximity with other people at the best of times... maybe that's why I like sailing?

 

[longjohnsilver]

Boris said he wanted people to take a pragmatic approach. A vessel is not a home and clearly being at anchor is not a risk to anyone and lets face it the restrictions were all about distancing. There is a massive difference between a caravan park with kids running around everywhere BBq'ing and being on a boat, to suggest that the risk are the same is both disingenuous and stupid. If anyone wants to be pedantic, I guess you will have to stay on watch at night or go night sailing and doze during the day.

That's right, Mark, we're being given a bit of leeway, being credited with having some ability to discern for ourselves what the risks are, whilst remaining essentially within the spirit of the guidance.

The risk to anyone in taking your own yacht off its mooring in fine weather, single-handing to some creek and anchoring there for a few nights is close to 0% of nothing, and I'd like to see what's left of the police and the courts really wasting their own time trying to apply the letter of the law (which doesn't actually exist) in such a case.

Absolutely, and I really can’t imagine mr plod walking around every boat in a marina knocking on the hull. And if he did, I wouldn’t answer because was feeling very ill and couldn’t safely drive home.
But it’s almost certainly not going to happen, they’ve better things to do.

 

[SimonFa]

I think common sense needs to prevail here...staying overnight on a swinging mooring with family members presents way less risk than either driving backwards and forwards to home, going cycling or food shopping!

That.

We're continually exhorted not to make unnecessary journeys and now they're saying we have to drive backwards and forwards to our boats when it would be far more convenient and less of a risk to stay on board.

 

[Dab]

I see Cowes Harbour Commission have updated their website and will be open on Saturday. In their updated NTM they have provided links to 2 pieces of Government guidance. The second is a set of DEFRA Q&As on Marine Leisure. In the first paragraph it states that watersports can be practiced on open waterways. It goes on to say that no overnight visits to private boats are permitted and that private boating on waterways may be resumed only for day visits. Overnight stays are not permitted.

That makes it pretty clear that you can't stay overnight on your boat at the moment, either in the marina or out on the water. So I can see why the likes of the Hamble HM and CHC are relaying that policy.