Chinese heaters. Switchable from 12 to 24 volt operation

[pcatterall]

Just reading a bit of a spat on facebook where one guy says you can just switch from 12 to 24 volts using the settings. Another guy says this is rubbish and that you can change the voltage of the control unit from 12 to 24 but not the heater itself.
The latter argument makes sense to me but the former is gaining support! I cannot see that a simple change in settings will step up the voltage for the pin, fan and pump unless there is a voltage converter built in.
Experts please advise!

 

[PaulRainbow]

Just reading a bit of a spat on facebook where one guy says you can just switch from 12 to 24 volts using the settings. Another guy says this is rubbish and that you can change the voltage of the control unit from 12 to 24 but not the heater itself.
The latter argument makes sense to me but the former is gaining support! I cannot see that a simple change in settings will step up the voltage for the pin, fan and pump unless there is a voltage converter built in.
Experts please advise!

I agree with you Pete. Easy to make the controller dual/multi voltage, even without changing settings, Eberspacher D2/4/5 controllers are 12v/24v. Not so simple to do with the rest of it, would need a fairly substantial DC-DC converter built into the heater.

 

[superheat6k]

As PR says it is unlikely the motor and the heater plug wil be dual voltage. I expect if you put 24v onto a 12v fan it will go off like a turbine.

 

[rszemeti]

Hmmm .... I suspect it MAY be possible without any need for modification or large DC-DC convertor.

The motor is PWM controlled in order to vary the speed, so yes, it may well be possible to run it off 24V and get the same results through settings as it just needs to halve the pulse width applied to the motor. This could easily be achieved in settings.

Same for the gloplug .. that is also controlled through PWM and not just a hard on/off ... as I can clearly see the plug current ramp up and down .... so that too could easily be run from 24V just by adjusting the PWM duty cycle ...

 

[Rappey]

I installed mine. Ordered a 12v. Tried starting it for first time and kept getting low voltage error. Charged the hell out my batterys and checked all wiring. Still low voltage warning.
Getting frustrated now! Played around with controller again, found 12/24v option. It was set to 24v. Changed it to 12v and it's ran fine ever since.
Instructions are hopeless.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Hmmm .... I suspect it MAY be possible without any need for modification or large DC-DC convertor.

The motor is PWM controlled in order to vary the speed, so yes, it may well be possible to run it off 24V and get the same results through settings as it just needs to halve the pulse width applied to the motor. This could easily be achieved in settings.

Same for the gloplug .. that is also controlled through PWM and not just a hard on/off ... as I can clearly see the plug current ramp up and down .... so that too could easily be run from 24V just by adjusting the PWM duty cycle ...

Technically, it is, of course, possible to run a whole heater from 12v/24v or anything in between, certainly by PWM, that's a DC-DC converter.

Fact would still remain, it's still need to be substantial to cope with max current demands. By substantial, i mean that it's not just going to be a few extra components on the main ECU board.

Eberspacher D2/4/5 controllers can run 12v/24v heaters, they are universal. But, the glow plugs, dosing pumps ECUs and motors are all 12v or 24v. The Chinese heaters are apparently Eber clones (the glow plugs, for instance are interchangeable), so i doubt the Chinese have added anything like dual voltage.

 

[rszemeti]

[it] would need a fairly substantial DC-DC converter built into the heater.

My point was it would not need anything "substantial" ... a simple FET with a minmal heatsink and a PWM signal could accomplish this in less than 2cm sqaure of board area, and I suspect they already have that for the speed control ... and having read a bit more, it appears the chinese ones may well have a universal fit motor at least, although there is some anecdotal evidence a different gloplug s fitted. It would be no more complex than telling the controlleer "the fan drive is 25, 50, and 100% for 12V, 12.5, 25 and 50% for 24V" ... if it has a speed controller, the job is already done.

If I can build an amplifier that runs universally from 90 to 280 volts, I'm sure even the Chinese can figure out how to PWM a motor.

 

[peteK]

The heaters are sold for use in lorries which have a 24v system.Isnt there something in the controller which reduces the voltage down to 12v.

 

[PaulRainbow]

My point was it would not need anything "substantial" ... a simple FET with a minmal heatsink and a PWM signal could accomplish this in less than 2cm sqaure of board area, and I suspect they already have that for the speed control ... and having read a bit more, it appears the chinese ones may well have a universal fit motor at least, although there is some anecdotal evidence a different gloplug s fitted. It would be no more complex than telling the controlleer "the fan drive is 25, 50, and 100% for 12V, 12.5, 25 and 50% for 24V" ... if it has a speed controller, the job is already done.

If I can build an amplifier that runs universally from 90 to 280 volts, I'm sure even the Chinese can figure out how to PWM a motor.

The question isn't "could the Chinese build a 12v/24v heater". it is "are the Chinese Eber clones 12v/24v"

If they are indeed Eber clones, they are either 12v or 24v, not both.

 

[rszemeti]

I have one running in the shed off a bench PSU ... if I am feeling brave, I may try setting it to 24V and see what happens ... I think the pump is certainly different between the 12 and 24V versions .. the rest, I am not so sure.

 

[Rappey]

I was led to believe the chinese are clones of the webasto..
So the fuel pump, here is a chinese one for sale12/24v and there is no drop down to select voltage so can only assume it works on both ? Also seen heaters that are advertised 12/24v and technical splurge - voltage/ 12/24 with no option to select 12 or 24v ?
I dont know either way, just adding info that may help to decide whos theory is correct
Car Air Diesel Parking Fuel Pump 12/24V 1-5KW For Eberspacher Universal Heater | eBay

 

[pcatterall]

Thanks all, I had been tempted to enter the facebook argument but there now seems to be a good argument that one can, indeed, select 12 or 24 in the settings.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I was led to believe the chinese are clones of the webasto..
So the fuel pump, here is a chinese one for sale12/24v and there is no drop down to select voltage so can only assume it works on both ? Also seen heaters that are advertised 12/24v and technical splurge - voltage/ 12/24 with no option to select 12 or 24v ?
I dont know either way, just adding info that may help to decide whos theory is correct
Car Air Diesel Parking Fuel Pump 12/24V 1-5KW For Eberspacher Universal Heater | eBay

Both Eberspacher and Webasto pumps are 12v or 24v, not both. The Ebay listing uou link to is nonsense, as are so many Chinglish Ebay listings/ Look carefully and you will see that the pump is not dual voltage.

 

[Rappey]

one can, indeed, select 12 or 24 in the settings.

I would state that as fact as its what i had to do.. but as for the rest of the heater unit i dont know, and not really worried as the chinese stuff is so cheap compared to the complete and utter rip off german stuff that if i needed parts would buy 2 each time for future spares..

I looked back at that link and looked at the pics, there is the clue that i didnt look at earlier, silver 12v, gold 24v ..

 

[PaulRainbow]

Some (not all) Eberspacher and Webasto controllers are 12v/24v (dual voltage)

Webasto fuel pumps are 12v or 24v
Eberspacher fuel pumps are 12v or 24v
Chinese fuel pumps on Ebay etc are 12v or 24v

Webasto glow plugs are 12v or 24v
Eberspacher glow plugs are 12v or 24v
Chinese glow plugs are 12v or 24v

Webasto fan motors are 12v or 24v
Eberspacher fan motors are 12v or 24v
Can't find a Chinese fan motor

Webasto ECUS are 12v or 24v
Eberspacher ECUs are 12v or 24v
Can't find a Chinese ECU

When i say 12v or 24v, i mean one or the other, not both.

So, given that the only item that is available with dual voltage is the controller (some controllers), what's the chance of a whole heater being dual voltage, controlled by the controller ?

 

[pcatterall]

I had hoped to use some of the Chinese parts to repair my Ebers. The first pump (sold as suitable for D2s) had a very different dosing rate it is marked 12 volts I have a Chinese fan unit ( sold as fitting the D2 ) it doesn't fit and is also marked 12 volts. A fan motor (sold as fitting the D2) doesn't fit and is also marked 12 volts.
The adverts say 12/24 but the photos indicate just one voltage. As stated one ad. says silver or gold to identify 12 or 24v.
Very confusing.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I had hoped to use some of the Chinese parts to repair my Ebers. The first pump (sold as suitable for D2s) had a very different dosing rate it is marked 12 volts I have a Chinese fan unit ( sold as fitting the D2 ) it doesn't fit and is also marked 12 volts. A fan motor (sold as fitting the D2) doesn't fit and is also marked 12 volts.
The adverts say 12/24 but the photos indicate just one voltage. As stated one ad. says silver or gold to identify 12 or 24v.
Very confusing.

If you look at the pictures in the Ebay listing Pete, some pumps are marked 24v, one pic says 12v silver 24v gold. The listing is a typically garbled Chinglish listing.

My money says, based on the evidence from post post #15, that the complete heater has to be 12v or 24v, the controller can be either.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I have one running in the shed off a bench PSU ... if I am feeling brave, I may try setting it to 24V and see what happens ... I think the pump is certainly different between the 12 and 24V versions .. the rest, I am not so sure.

Set the PSU and controller to 24v, let us know how you get on.

You do have a fire extinguisher in the shed ?

 

[Rappey]

There are chinese motor fans on ebay, listed as 12v, and motherboards listed as 12/24 v.
Ebay search can be a bit weird. Search for something and there are non, but search Google for same item and lots of current items come up on ebay ?
Have had some amazing bagains maybe due to no one else seeing the items ?