Your feelings on the state of the second-hand yacht market?

[pipemma]

Hi everyone
I've been a member of the forum for many many years but I'm lurker coming out of the shadows here. I feel silly asking this as a long-time yacht owner, but strangely enough this is the first time I've been looking seriously at boats on the open market.

I was wondering if anyone could share their feelings on the state of the (second-hand) yacht market in EU waters at the moment? I get the feeling supply is relatively low and prices are higher than they were 3-4 years ago? Also VAT-paid boats in EU waters seem to attract a premium (or are boat prices in the UK suffering a little from losing their status)? Is the market really hot? I'd heard there are quite a few people making offers sight unseen?

We have a specific set of criteria that not many boats fall into at the moment but the size and price range we're looking at are probably the most popular, so I'm guessing we're competing with quite a lot of other people. A boat has just come up that we're very strongly interested in and think is very keenly priced, but we can't get there to view for at least a couple of weeks. On enquiry I've been told that someone has already made an asking-price offer but not that it's been accepted (we haven't been told that it hasn't been accepted, but there was also no mention that it had been accepted, if you follow me). I'm wondering if the broker was making a subliminal suggestion that a higher-than-asking-price offer wouldn't be out of order?

Is the yacht market more like the housing market, i.e. just because there's an asking-price offer doesn't stop you offering more in the hope of securing a boat? Other than spending more than asking price, are there any disadvantages? The risk of a bidding war, I guess, but would one get a reputation for sharp practices? After all, its not like there are 7 "estate agents" for yachts in every town. Or is the market more dog-eat-dog for the right boat at the mo?

We're looking to buy our forever boat so we're not looking for a "bargain" at all costs. That means we can go over an asking price we think is more than reasonable, we're just not willing to pay 50% over historic recent selling prices as the owners of the last boat we offered on wanted.

Thanks in advance
Pipemma

 

[RJJ]

No idea on the market

Offer-wise, it's much like housing. There can be an offer hanging unaccepted; an offer accepted and paperwork pending; an offer formally agreed and survey underway. In the first case the seller/broker has made no commitment so, as a rival buyer, you are definitely free to up the bidding. In other cases there is verbal and possibly written agreement but always there are question marks up to completion; it's up to the seller/broker's sense of propriety whether they consider buyer #2 while already asking buyer #1 to fork out for surveys etc. I wouldn't, plenty would.

What's a really grey area is if a prospective and "agreed" buyer is being seen to move slowly.

Based on what you have been told, you are free to offer.

 

[davidej]

I was speaking to a friend who had recently been to the Düsseldorf boat show. He commented that the price rises on new boats are eye watering and waiting lists long.

This must result in strong second hand prices.

 

[ashtead]

The issue with older boat prices is it’s so dependent on the quality /age/condition of constituent parts once over say 10 years old. What you do see though is old dogs being flogged in popular areas just because carefully maintained are on the market. There is no accurate value -if you take house valuations a range of 25% isn’t unusual. Clearly some buyers will gazump but then post survey nickel and dime the price down or attempt to. A lot depends on the position of seller though but one advantage of a good broker is he wants the deal to go through and not to spend a lot of time closing the sale . It really also depends on rarity of vessel and sector you are looking in -let’s just say you were looking to buy a 46Oyster -well I guess not many out there so there might be a premium much like Rustlers say. I’m sure if you make a higher offer the broker is under an obligation to pass on to seller and maybe the broker thinks the current offer is from a nickel and dime-try your luck -what do you have to lose if it’s your forever boat.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

In my, (admittedly limited), experience, when a vendor/broker has received an offer on a boat, it will be classified as "Under Offer" and they will entertain no other offers until the original prospective buyer has either committed to the purchase or walked away.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Had a friend recently buy a Sunbeam 37 in North Germany ..... it was offered for around €125k and he was negotiating with the owner on price.

A broker walked in with cash and bought it on the spot for the asking price.

It was back on the market within a week at €150k

My friend ended up buying off the broker at a 20k plus premium over what he could have bought it for had he not tried to negotiate.

This was tail-end 2022.

I have been watching the market for a while now, looking for a used AWB in the Med around €150k. Prices seem stable and subjectively it seems there are more and more boats popping up with 10-20k price drops.

To get the best deal, watch the market, move fast, and have the cash ready for an immediate payment.

 

[pipemma]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone, they rather mirror my own.

We put in the offer and were subsequently told the vendors had accepted the previous asking-price offer but our contact was unsure whether the paperwork had gone out or come back. Turns out the paperwork went out at the end of last week but didn't come back until this morning. I asked the broker at the outset to at least put our offer forward to the vendor, but I'm not convinced they did. As a vendor, I would want to be informed of every offer until the ink is dry on both parties' signatures on the contract because ultimately it's *my* decision whether or not to accept an offer, not the broker's. Also I would expect a broker to update their ads with "under offer" the moment an offer is verbally accepted. Given that the previous boat we offered on (listed with that same broker) needed around 20k of kit added to bring it up to the specification listed in the ad, and that they no-showed when they were supposed to look at my boat with a view to listing, all things considered they've rather ruled themselves out of the running if I decide to change broker.

On another note, I'm finding the alert systems on the portals like ApolloDuck aren't working so I'm going to have to scour them all every day - has anyone else experienced the same? That's quite aside from their terrible functionality that makes you add separate alerts for every model in every country you're interested in <sigh>

@Baggywrinkle if you'd be interested in a Jeanneau SO44i in Greece, let's talk

 

[Close hauled]

Our experience is that there is more demand than supply. New boats have a 2/3 year lead time and a commitment to cover any price increase. A friend with an Oyster was offered double the asking price - and of course took it.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone, they rather mirror my own.

We put in the offer and were subsequently told the vendors had accepted the previous asking-price offer but our contact was unsure whether the paperwork had gone out or come back. Turns out the paperwork went out at the end of last week but didn't come back until this morning. I asked the broker at the outset to at least put our offer forward to the vendor, but I'm not convinced they did. As a vendor, I would want to be informed of every offer until the ink is dry on both parties' signatures on the contract because ultimately it's *my* decision whether or not to accept an offer, not the broker's. Also I would expect a broker to update their ads with "under offer" the moment an offer is verbally accepted. Given that the previous boat we offered on (listed with that same broker) needed around 20k of kit added to bring it up to the specification listed in the ad, and that they no-showed when they were supposed to look at my boat with a view to listing, all things considered they've rather ruled themselves out of the running if I decide to change broker.

On another note, I'm finding the alert systems on the portals like ApolloDuck aren't working so I'm going to have to scour them all every day - has anyone else experienced the same? That's quite aside from their terrible functionality that makes you add separate alerts for every model in every country you're interested in <sigh>

@Baggywrinkle if you'd be interested in a Jeanneau SO44i in Greece, let's talk

Thanks for the offer, but the SO 44i is just a shade too big - I'm trying to keep the next boat somewhere between 12 and 13m

Same experience on the portals ... they are awful for alerts.

 

[ashtead]

I guess if you are interested in a particular make then the relevant owners website might elicit info -I’m not a member but I suspect some owners associations have an inside word of mouth network -clearly might not help if seeking a rare brand but might be another avenue.

 

[Irish Rover]

On another note, I'm finding the alert systems on the portals like ApolloDuck aren't working so I'm going to have to scour them all every day - has anyone else experienced the same? That's quite aside from their terrible functionality that makes you add separate alerts for every model in every country you're interested in

Absolutely. Apolloduck is a disaster. I never receive requested alerts. YachtWorld, on the other hand, spam you every day with boats which are nowhere close to your set criteria.

 

[westernman]

In France, buying a boat is a bit like buying a house.
If your offer is accepted, you will sign a "compromis de vente" and give the broker/estate agent a cheque for 10% of the offer price.

That is basically a binding contract subject to satisfactory survey and possibly other conditions (e.g. getting a bank loan - the maximum interest rate would normally be specified).

In that case if the buyer sells it to some one else, they will be liable to refund your deposit plus the same again.

Similarly if you pull out for a reason not stated on the "compromis de vente" you will lose your deposit.

So basically either there is a "compromis de vente", in which case the broker probably won't even talk to you, or there isn't. In which case the other buyer is probably imaginary.

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[Tranona]

That is basically the same in the UK and it is the broker's job to ensure the buyer can complete. Problem is the property shows tell you that you can get a seller to take it off the market based on a verbal offer which conditions people to mess about. Having been a house seller where I had 2 buyers in a contract race I would not want to be in that position again. Very stressful aand the "wrong" person win - but his money got there first!

 

[Fimacca]

I have been helping a friend look for his new boat. Uk. They are overpriced at the moment, and he is paying a 15-20% premium over what I paid for mine just pre/start pandemic. I keep telling him to wait - and he won't.

Even back then, in 2021, mad folk were buying boats unseen if they looked good. Not even a survey . I had to touch, feel, smell and poke around in nooks and crannies before they had the cash from a scotsman!

I did have to be quick though - and not faff around. A good, tidy boat will go soon. if it hangs around too long - there is a reason.

 

[jac]

I have been helping a friend look for his new boat. Uk. They are overpriced at the moment, and he is paying a 15-20% premium over what I paid for mine just pre/start pandemic. I keep telling him to wait - and he won't.

Even back then, in 2021, mad folk were buying boats unseen if they looked good. Not even a survey . I had to touch, feel, smell and poke around in nooks and crannies before they had the cash from a scotsman!

I did have to be quick though - and not faff around. A good, tidy boat will go soon. if it hangs around too long - there is a reason.

This question of "overpriced" is an interesting one.

The "value" of anything is the price where a seller and buyer can agree. Whilst prices are indeed higher than pre pandemic that just means prices are higher, not that they will fall back to pre pandemic prices. the market has changed:
Those buying boats are likely have owned a property for a while so are insulated from mortgage rises (although of course the other cost of living crisis factors will apply. )
I suspect many may now have more free time thanks to the rise in hybrid working so more people can justify the time and some may have saved money
New boat sales / builds were disrupted so more demand for nearly new boats that people can buy now rather than wait a year

All of that means that demand is relatively high and supply is relatively low so prices will remain high. If he waits he will definitely miss out on some sailing this season and in a year the boats may be even more expensive as pay has gone up another 5% so people can afford more. You're a long time dead so my thought ( and what i did ) was buy the best boat that fitted my needs.

 

[Geoff A]

From what I can gather you are all talking about boats inexcess of £20 000.00 + also newer boats. How about older boats from the 70s and 80s below 10m and less?

 

[Tranona]

From what I can gather you are all talking about boats inexcess of £20 000.00 + also newer boats. How about older boats from the 70s and 80s below 10m and less?

Prices vary enormously because the huge variation in condition and location. Look at the similar thread on Scuttlebutt and you will get a flavour of why this is so.

 

[hurley]

Westerly fulmar fin keel South Coast 19k (was 24k) been on the market for 6 months. Fulmar fin keel east coast just gone on for 28k very little difference in condition age and spec. I think we will get a clearer idea of where the market is over the next few months. I have noticed a lot of boats bought during covid period back on the market often at similar prices they were bought. Lots of boats with tired sails and original engine same price as updated Re engined boats.

 

[Irish Rover]

Absolutely. Apolloduck is a disaster. I never receive requested alerts. YachtWorld, on the other hand, spam you every day with boats which are nowhere close to your set criteria.

Just to illustrate my point about Yachtworld here's one of their offerings today
2018 Mardaya 70 Power Power Catamaran for sale - YachtWorld

 

[peter gibbs]

Hi everyone
I've been a member of the forum for many many years but I'm lurker coming out of the shadows here. I feel silly asking this as a long-time yacht owner, but strangely enough this is the first time I've been looking seriously at boats on the open market.

I was wondering if anyone could share their feelings on the state of the (second-hand) yacht market in EU waters at the moment? I get the feeling supply is relatively low and prices are higher than they were 3-4 years ago? Also VAT-paid boats in EU waters seem to attract a premium (or are boat prices in the UK suffering a little from losing their status)? Is the market really hot? I'd heard there are quite a few people making offers sight unseen?

We have a specific set of criteria that not many boats fall into at the moment but the size and price range we're looking at are probably the most popular, so I'm guessing we're competing with quite a lot of other people. A boat has just come up that we're very strongly interested in and think is very keenly priced, but we can't get there to view for at least a couple of weeks. On enquiry I've been told that someone has already made an asking-price offer but not that it's been accepted (we haven't been told that it hasn't been accepted, but there was also no mention that it had been accepted, if you follow me). I'm wondering if the broker was making a subliminal suggestion that a higher-than-asking-price offer wouldn't be out of order?

Is the yacht market more like the housing market, i.e. just because there's an asking-price offer doesn't stop you offering more in the hope of securing a boat? Other than spending more than asking price, are there any disadvantages? The risk of a bidding war, I guess, but would one get a reputation for sharp practices? After all, its not like there are 7 "estate agents" for yachts in every town. Or is the market more dog-eat-dog for the right boat at the mo?

We're looking to buy our forever boat so we're not looking for a "bargain" at all costs. That means we can go over an asking price we think is more than reasonable, we're just not willing to pay 50% over historic recent selling prices as the owners of the last boat we offered on wanted.

Thanks in advance
Pipemma

Hi everyone
I've been a member of the forum for many many years but I'm lurker coming out of the shadows here. I feel silly asking this as a long-time yacht owner, but strangely enough this is the first time I've been looking seriously at boats on the open market.

I was wondering if anyone could share their feelings on the state of the (second-hand) yacht market in EU waters at the moment? I get the feeling supply is relatively low and prices are higher than they were 3-4 years ago? Also VAT-paid boats in EU waters seem to attract a premium (or are boat prices in the UK suffering a little from losing their status)? Is the market really hot? I'd heard there are quite a few people making offers sight unseen?

We have a specific set of criteria that not many boats fall into at the moment but the size and price range we're looking at are probably the most popular, so I'm guessing we're competing with quite a lot of other people. A boat has just come up that we're very strongly interested in and think is very keenly priced, but we can't get there to view for at least a couple of weeks. On enquiry I've been told that someone has already made an asking-price offer but not that it's been accepted (we haven't been told that it hasn't been accepted, but there was also no mention that it had been accepted, if you follow me). I'm wondering if the broker was making a subliminal suggestion that a higher-than-asking-price offer wouldn't be out of order?

Is the yacht market more like the housing market, i.e. just because there's an asking-price offer doesn't stop you offering more in the hope of securing a boat? Other than spending more than asking price, are there any disadvantages? The risk of a bidding war, I guess, but would one get a reputation for sharp practices? After all, its not like there are 7 "estate agents" for yachts in every town. Or is the market more dog-eat-dog for the right boat at the mo?

We're looking to buy our forever boat so we're not looking for a "bargain" at all costs. That means we can go over an asking price we think is more than reasonable, we're just not willing to pay 50% over historic recent selling prices as the owners of the last boat we offered on wanted.

Thanks in advance
Pipemma

It may seem logical that inessentials such as a hobby boat should experience less demand now and so lower market prices. But that's not how consumers think. The last 5 years have caused many to reconsider lifestyles and ambitions. Boating remains a powerful attraction. My take is that middle and upper income groups will push ahead. This will sustain demand for new boats and recent models. Boats are also, for a minority, a means of transferring wealth below the radar.
Prices will be firm so intending purchasers need to do their research to establish the going rate and seal a deal without long intakes of breath. It's a sellers' market. With used boats, care must of course be taken over condition - more research!
Older vessels, say 10+ years, and well presented will enjoy similar if more eclectic demand and pricing, recognising the advancing need to replace costly items. Bargains will be rare even in this category.
So, if you want to get afloat this year, extensive research and some flexibility as to model are strongly advised. Don't overlook berthing - still a restrained market and potential stumbling block to total happiness!
Good luck. Do share your experiences here and help us all wise up!
PWG