YM test of GT35

[AndrewfromFal]

No, I still don't think Ford put wood trim in their Fiestas, as you claimed. So, which Fiestas had wood trim? Or are you happy to leave it because you know it's untrue?

The Ghia models although can't remember if it was in the 1990s or 2000s. I can remember this because I have a photographic memory, and also because I have a friend who worked on the TV advertising campaign...and we were talking about it (in terms of polishing a turd/rolling it in glitter) fairly recently.

I'm happy to leave if because if your argument about whether or not something happened is simply based on whether or not you personally remember it, then clearly sensible discussion is a waste of time.

It also doesn't actually disprove my point which is that manufacturers will often buy in high quality fittings to bling up a mediocre / poor product. Another example would be a lot of the kitchens that go into high end homes in London, - the actual cabinetry is really no different to what you get in Magnet, - but it just has fancier taps/appliances, etc

 

[JumbleDuck]

Bavarias debt run into hundreds of millions of Euros

Wasn't all Bavaria's debt written off in the 2009 debt-for-equity swap?

 

[JumbleDuck]

No, I still don't think Ford put wood trim in their Fiestas, as you claimed. So, which Fiestas had wood trim?

Mk1 Ghia.

 

[AndrewfromFal]

Wasn't all Bavaria's debt written off in the 2009 debt-for-equity swap?

You're probably way more up to date on this than me - I just remember that the sums involved were colossal, and seemed totally nuts even for a volume producer of their scale. However that was sorted, I'm sure the business is still being sweated for all it's worth....

 

[JumbleDuck]

You're probably way more up to date on this than me - I just remember that the sums involved were colossal, and seemed totally nuts even for a volume producer of their scale. However that was sorted, I'm sure the business is still being sweated for all it's worth....

My recollection, for what it's worth, is that they borrowed heavily to increase production facilities, demand slumped with the crash (they're still only running at 50% capacity) and the banks took the business from Bain Capital in exchange for writing off debts of around €1bn. I'm open to correction on that.

 

[Tranona]

Like I say I live to be enlightened about their use as charter yachts, although the info graphic you provide only shows their popularity as a manufacturer of charter yachts, not how much use they get. The reason this is important its quite possible that a lot of charter yachts are probably more notionally charter yachts for tax purposes, and while they will be chartered from time to time, actually aren't exposed to heavy use. What you've provided is a bit of data that is a piece of the puzzle, but cannot on it's own be taken as an affirmation of anything other than that a lot of Bavarias are registered as charter yachts for one reason or another.

You clearly know nothing about the charter business. Bavarias are extensively used. Suggest you go to Greece and Croatia and look for yourself - or even simply go onto Yachtworld and look at the large number of ex charter Bavarias for sale in those two countries having done their 6 or 7 years service.

I bought my Bavaria in 2001 specifically to charter in Greece. It was just one of 69 similar boats that went on the fleet that year. It did 7 seasons trouble free use, 3500 engine hours, averaging 24 weeks a year out on charter. I then sailed the boat back to UK. Apart from the sails, saloon upholstery, cooker, windlass and the saildrive unit, every single major component is exactly as it left the factory, everything works and it looks as good as any other boat of similar age.

The video of the factory reflects very closely the care that goes into building a mass produced boat and the efficiencies translate into significant cost savings for buyers. All the equipment used comes from the same suppliers as other more expensive boats use - Selden rigs, Volvo engines, Harken, Lewmar and Rutgerson deck gear, Whitlock or Jefa steering, Lofrans or Lewmar windlass Raymarine - now Garmin instruments etc. My boat was one of the first built in the revised factory. It was made in exactly the week that was promised when I ordered it 6 months earlier and apart from 2 defective hatches had no warranty issues at all.

You will find private buyers who are just as satisfied with their purchases as I am. A firm does not go from 300 units a year to 3000 by producing deficient products.

 

[Simondjuk]

Of course I would say this as an owner but... when we bought our current boat, a '99 Bav 38, we did so in no hurry as we already owned an Evolution 25 which was great fun to sail but too small for our extended cruising plans. We weren't particularly constrained on budget, we didn't even need to sell our then current boat in order to proceed. We looked at many boats in the 40 foot bracket. After much poking around, deliberation, discussion and pondering, we made a decision and bought the Bav. Why? Because, frankly, having looked at the French, Scandinavian and British offerings, none represented the value for money of the Bav.

In short, I could have paid three times as much for a HR and, besides a mahogany strip headlining, have got nothing at all more for my money.

Headlining aside, where is this extra quality that I've failed to appreciate? Or is it only apparent to folk who know the price of everything and the value of nothing?

 

[Tempus]

This has been a very interested thread but has confirmed many of my scuttlebutt theories.

1 - those that do (ocean cruising) do so in whatever they can afford and like. Those that don't yet do do so only with long keels

2 - all topics on build will eventually revert to the mean of discussing whether or not Bavaria keels will fall off because they cost less so must be made wrong

Having visited a number of boatyards and seen boats being made I can understand the costs benefits of efficient volume production. Most are horribly inefficient, largely because they are locked in a cycle of high prices so low volume so bespoke hand manufacturing. We eventually bought a uk made boat built like that because we liked its design, but in no way does it represent value for money. However we were not looking at £ per m/kg but working on the principal that you can't spend too much on something which you love dearly. We could afford that choice, few can, I don't judge.

our new boat has a stern that Freddy Mercury would have sung about, sails fabulously downwind and tracks without touching the helm upwind at 8 knots. It doesn't look as pretty from the outside as our last, but I don't care as I spend around 10 minutes a year rowing away from her in the dinghy and about 60 evenings a year inside the saloon /cabins. Most people do the same so builders, unsurprisingly, build nice cabins at the expense of drop dead pretty exteriors. Even the new GT yacht, which is founded on a return to basics is more focussed on interior space than exterior style.

I thnk we are living in a golden age of yacht design with enough manufacturers out there to produce really interesiting boats, and yet enough volume to make yachting affordable. I wish GT we'll, but encourage them to try as hard on their styling as their clever features.

 

[Barbican]

I hope GT succeed with their new models. They may not be to the tastes of those who buy the products of the high volume builders, but to those who hanker after things that these producers don't supply its great that what they want is available from smaller builders with the flexibility in their process to meet their customers requirements. I don't know the owner of this first GT35, but doubtless it is what he wanted. So if you can find exactly what you want from the big guys, and their products are designed for mass appeal, then your in a great place. If however you feel the need for a one off, or a semi custom builder to get exactly what you want, well then it'll probably cost more, but at least its available, and happily there are some great designers and builders in the UK that can fulfill your dreams. In either case the buyer is getting value for money by their criteria, if they weren't happy they wouldn't buy. At this price point for 35ft I know it wouldn't be on my list unless discounted heavily, but I would be looking hard at the Rustler and Southerly as well as others. The more choices the better!

 

[windpipe]

Of course I would say this as an owner but... when we bought our current boat, a '99 Bav 38, we did so in no hurry as we already owned an Evolution 25 which was great fun to sail but too small for our extended cruising plans. We weren't particularly constrained on budget, we didn't even need to sell our then current boat in order to proceed. We looked at many boats in the 40 foot bracket. After much poking around, deliberation, discussion and pondering, we made a decision and bought the Bav. Why? Because, frankly, having looked at the French, Scandinavian and British offerings, none represented the value for money of the Bav.

In short, I could have paid three times as much for a HR and, besides a mahogany strip headlining, have got nothing at all more for my money.

Headlining aside, where is this extra quality that I've failed to appreciate? Or is it only apparent to folk who know the price of everything and the value of nothing?

You cannot possibly suggest that Bavaria build anywhere near the quality of HR. If you cannot see the difference between the 2 then i think we should leave it at that. I agree that value for money Bavaria are great boats. Think of it this way, if money was not an issue and you got caught in a mid atlantic gale - Which boat would you rather be in? HR and the higher end builders build blue water cruisers, Bavaria and the french builders build holiday boats.

 

[Twister_Ken]

You cannot possibly suggest that Bavaria build anywhere near the quality of HR. If you cannot see the difference between the 2 then i think we should leave it at that. I agree that value for money Bavaria are great boats. Think of it this way, if money was not an issue and you got caught in a mid atlantic gale - Which boat would you rather be in? HR and the higher end builders build blue water cruisers, Bavaria and the french builders build holiday boats.

Arc 2014 entry list

http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/arc_2014_evententries.aspx

10 Bavarias, 7 HRs

 

[pvb]

Looking at it another way, the HR372 weighs 7.5 tonnes, less a 2.9 tonne keel, equals 4.6 tonnes for the hull.

The Bavaria Cruiser 37 weighs 7.0 tonnes, less a 2.1 tonne keel, equals 4.9 tonnes for the hull.

So which is the more heavily built boat?

 

[sailorman]

Looking at it another way, the HR372 weighs 7.5 tonnes, less a 2.9 tonne keel, equals 4.6 tonnes for the hull.

The Bavaria Cruiser 37 weighs 7.0 tonnes, less a 2.1 tonne keel, equals 4.9 tonnes for the hull.

So which is the more heavily built boat?

how much do the engines weigh

 

[Tranona]

how much do the engines weigh

The Bavaria engine weighs less. 3 cylinder 40hp (option engine) HR is 55hp.

 

[JumbleDuck]

how much do the engines weigh

According to the HR website (http://www.hallberg-rassy.com/yachts/aft-cockpit-boats/372/) the 372 comes with a Volvo Penta D2-55 130S, and according to Volvo Penta, that weighs 253kg dry, with saildrive.

According to the Bavaria website (http://www.bavariayachts.com/bavaria-cruiser-37.php), the Cruiser 37 comes with "Engine (Volvo-Penta) 27 hp saildrive" which I presume is the D1-30, listed by Volvo as 27.1hp and with a dry weight including saildrive of 158kg.

So if you subtract the engines, the Bavaria structure is another 95kg ahead and is 400kg heavier than the Halberg-Rassy.

 

[robmcg]

Looking at it another way, the HR372 weighs 7.5 tonnes, less a 2.9 tonne keel, equals 4.6 tonnes for the hull.

The Bavaria Cruiser 37 weighs 7.0 tonnes, less a 2.1 tonne keel, equals 4.9 tonnes for the hull.

So which is the more heavily built boat?

They do say MDF is very heavy!



...... I'll throw myself out!

 

[Poecheng]

HR372 Spec: "Deck, toerail, cockpit seats, cockpit coaming, cockpit floor, and bathing platform have top quality teak laid in silicon rubber"
Bav cruiser 37 spec: Cockpit seats, helmsman's seat and bathing platform in teak

So that is another load of kgs that the HR is carrying that is quality but not strength.

I suppose the more this goes on we are showing that HR have managed to build light but strong hulls onto which they then bolt a heavy keel (2.9t compared to 2.1t for the Bav) and that might be thought to be a good thing.

And then they spoil it by covering it in teak

 

[Simondjuk]

You cannot possibly suggest that Bavaria build anywhere near the quality of HR. If you cannot see the difference between the 2 then i think we should leave it at that. I agree that value for money Bavaria are great boats. Think of it this way, if money was not an issue and you got caught in a mid atlantic gale - Which boat would you rather be in? HR and the higher end builders build blue water cruisers, Bavaria and the french builders build holiday boats.

Tell me the differences, besides a strip mahogany headlining and a bit more ballast which my boat doesn't miss and sails faster for the lack of.

For £150K vs £53K spent on a fourteen year old 40 foot boat, I'm expecting a pretty lengthy list.

 

[30boat]

I think I'd want to see rather solider evidence of these self tappers before I believed in them.

These are self tappers,no doubt about it.

 

[doris]

These are self tappers,no doubt about it.

I think that is 'Back in your box' Mr Jumblyduck!