windpipe
Member
:encouragement:
YM test of GT35
- Thread starter eddystone
- Start date
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
I think I'd want to see rather solider evidence of these self tappers before I believed in them.
windpipe
Member
I don't think you can really call a Bavaria 'Extremely well built'. They are built to the lowest cost possible, as are the French production boats mentioned. I am not saying they are badly built but they are a far cry from what we could call excellent build quality!
AndrewfromFal
Well-Known Member
Fair enough, but I imagine the much vaunted YouTube video of Bavaria's production system won't provide insight into this one way or another....which was kind of the point I was trying to make.
pvb
Well-Known Member
The fact that these sort of boats cope with years of hard charter use demonstrates that they're pretty well put together. I didn't say "high quality", so please don't try to misquote me.
Again, I haven't said that, so please don't try to misquote me.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
So is everything. I don't imagine that even the makers of PosheYottes think "We're not spending enough money on this. Let's laminate in a layer of gold leaf, just for the hell of it.". Perhaps Bavarias are more lightly build than some other makes (though I have seen convincing arguments against this) but if they are then it's almost certainly because as mass producers they have the resources to work out exactly where to put material. The small artisan makers, putting together a few boats a year, have less resource and have to resort to the old GRP fabrication method of "slap lots of layup on everywhere and hope for the best".
pvb
Well-Known Member
Are they really built to the "lowest cost possible"? I think not. All of these mainstream boats now use good quality equipment, Selden spars, Lewmar/Harken winches, Jabsco pumps, Garmin/B&G electronics, etc. They don't, for example, usually fit Nasa electronics. The resins they use are the same as other builders. The displacement data would seem to suggest that they're not built more flimsily than many other boats. However, Ben/Jen/Bav do use highly automated production processes to help cut their selling prices and so increase their sales volume. And, of course, their very high sales volumes enable them to buy all the hardware/engines at much lower prices than small producers, again enabling more competitive selling prices.
AndrewfromFal
Well-Known Member
I actually asked you to clarify if you were basing your analysis on the way the boats were engineered for assembly; - although you didn't directly answer you now appear to be saying that is what you said. - Apologies if you feel you were misquoted, but your comment was rather ambiguous. Your point about charter use is an interesting one.....but IFAIK none of the big operators use Bavarias......however, I live to be enlightened......
On the second point....so what was your comment about waiting for a production video from Windboats about then?
Seven Spades
Well-Known Member
I have to say that when GT yachts started I was quite excited. The Starlights are brilliant yachts, but they are small inside and not everyone likes the mainsheet in the cockpit. The idea of an up-to-date modern 35 & 39 sounded great but then it all started to go wrong.
1. Self tacking job and in mast main.
2. Water under one bunk and fuel under another instead of placing them under the floor like X-Yachts do.
3. Not employing an interior designer, this alone kills the sale to me.
The Starlights are fast safe cruisers. The GT yachts are definitely safe but the will need quite a bit of wind to get them going.
Having said all that it is early days and I see no reason why most of these things can't be sorted out. This is the very first boat from a brand new British yacht manufacturer I think if you look at the earliest boats from any manufacturer you would cringe. I don't think the GT is cringe worthy at all but it does need a MKII or as Fagin sang... I think I had better think it out again.
1. Self tacking job and in mast main.
2. Water under one bunk and fuel under another instead of placing them under the floor like X-Yachts do.
3. Not employing an interior designer, this alone kills the sale to me.
The Starlights are fast safe cruisers. The GT yachts are definitely safe but the will need quite a bit of wind to get them going.
Having said all that it is early days and I see no reason why most of these things can't be sorted out. This is the very first boat from a brand new British yacht manufacturer I think if you look at the earliest boats from any manufacturer you would cringe. I don't think the GT is cringe worthy at all but it does need a MKII or as Fagin sang... I think I had better think it out again.
windpipe
Member
I think you are kidding yourself if you don't think they are built down to a price, they are, lets face the facts. Yes, the amount they produce enables them to procure fitting and fixings more cheaply but the fact still remain that no matter which way you put it these yachts cannot be described as Extremely well built. Don't get me wrong i have just bought a very small production boat myself by i am under no illusion about it's quality.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Bavaria is probably the dominant make in the charter market (see http://www.yachtsys.com/Infographic-What-you-should-know-about-bareboat-yacht-charters.html).
Seems you actually know very little about Bavarias, although you apparently know enough to criticise them...
AndrewfromFal
Well-Known Member
All of which were arguments deployed by MacGregor Yachts 20 years ago to explain how they could build a trailer sailor for $4000 a time, and a 65 foot ULDB for $165,000. The build quality of the 26 was terrible and they stopped building 65s because they were a magnet for product liability lawsuits from disgruntled owners.
The high quality equipment they use is a marketing ploy and nothing more....rather like when Ford started putting wood and leather trim into their Fiestas.......it instills a feeling of underlying quality; but just because it has Harken blocks and Lewmar winches doesn't really indicate the quality of the hull deck join or the rudder bearings for example.
Also remember not so long ago, Bavaria had astronomical debts; - I've no idea what it's finances are like these days (am sure there people here more knowledgeable about the current state of affairs than I), but it's entirely possible a hefty slice of what the customer pays is still servicing that debt.
pvb
Well-Known Member
I didn't think that Ford ever used wood trim in their Fiestas - which models were those?
As for debt, almost all boatbuilders seem to end up with large debts.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
As are GT35s. They are simply built down toa rather higher price. In fact, as posted, I expect that less efficient productions accounts for a fair part of the cost difference.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Perhaps it's more accurate to say that all yachts are built "to a price", rather than "down to a price" which is a rather prejudicial statement.
AndrewfromFal
Well-Known Member
Like I say I live to be enlightened about their use as charter yachts, although the info graphic you provide only shows their popularity as a manufacturer of charter yachts, not how much use they get. The reason this is important its quite possible that a lot of charter yachts are probably more notionally charter yachts for tax purposes, and while they will be chartered from time to time, actually aren't exposed to heavy use. What you've provided is a bit of data that is a piece of the puzzle, but cannot on it's own be taken as an affirmation of anything other than that a lot of Bavarias are registered as charter yachts for one reason or another.
I sailed a Bavaria on and off back in the early nineties, and was impressed. It was a well built, well designed boat that was built to Scandi levels of quality. I spent a week on a new one recently and in spite of the allowance for their move into high volume/low cost in the last 2 decades, thought the product was pretty poor. Hands on experience, up close and personal.
Maybe I'm doing this all wrong and should just trust in Youtube videos as you seem to?
pvb
Well-Known Member
You've amply demonstrated your prejudices, so just keep knocking Bavarias. I don't "trust in Youtube videos", I merely gave that link as an example of class-leading production engineering in the boatbuilding world. I sold my old Hallberg-Rassy recently, and I've spent a lot of time since crawling over new AWBs, looking in all the nooks and crannies, evaluating the systems installations, etc, and I still reckon current-build Bavarias and Jeanneaus are pretty good, especially in value terms.
AndrewfromFal
Well-Known Member
OK, you don't think something happened, therefore it didn't. Fine if that's the level of your argument, I'm happy to leave that one there.
Bavarias debt run into hundreds of millions of Euros; name me another boatbuilder that carried that kind debt? You won't for two reasons, firstly because aside from The Ferretti Group, no other builder has been leveraged to that extent(and they aren't really relevant for the purposes of this discussion), and secondly when I ask you anything that may lead to an answer that doesn't fit with your world view, you ignore it. Hardly a robust way to handle a discussion is it.
pvb
Well-Known Member
No, I still don't think Ford put wood trim in their Fiestas, as you claimed. So, which Fiestas had wood trim? Or are you happy to leave it because you know it's untrue?
AndrewfromFal
Well-Known Member
You missed the point spectacularly, so I'll spell it out for you. Although Bavarias are not to my taste, I don't have a problem with per se, they are a product that fills a need for the people that buy them. What I have a problem with, is when people try and compare them with something built to a completely different philosophy, and at a much higher level of quality I terms of the finished product. A production line is just a production line, it turns out a product to a tightly defined spec......good or bad, by their nature they are impressive to look at, but they give no indication in themselves to the quality of the end product.
I've asked you repeatedly to answer a very specific point about build quality highlighted by another poster, and for all the crawling you have done around AWBs, you have failed to address this (and have in fact ignored it in the way people do when faced with an inconvenient truth), and at best provided a partial data set (which on its own is essentially meaningless) to provide an answer to another point I raised.
If I'm prejudiced against anything, it's a poorly constructed argument that isn't backed up by evidence.
