Yachts for Sale Descriptions

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francophile51

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Why is it that so many for sale ads lack the key elements such as engine hours, age and condition of sails, age of standing rigging and the type and vintage of the autopilot? On websites like Moody owners, it gets even more coy when some sellers can't even bring themselves to disclose the asking price. I recently enquired after a boat and after making my way through the seven veils of such meaningless terms as " serviceable", it turned out that the rigging, sails and instruments and autopilot all needed replacing.
 
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Well we ( https://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/ ) try to give as accurate and detailed an inventory as possible, but often it's just not possible.

Even when the boat has had (for example) a new autopilot or sails in the present ownership, many owners regard anything they have paid for in the 15 years they have owned the boat as "new". Many owners just don't keep full records. If someone has owned the boat a shorter time and receipts for expenditure have not been kept and passed on then with the best will in the world no-one can tell how old some stuff is. We do try to do some "forensics" - we recently met a Yanmar engine that was supposedly installed new in 2010 according to the previous brokers advert. Well it might have been, but there was no paperwork and that model engine went out of production several years earlier. Not that there was anything wrong with it, it ran beautifully. As for engine hours, how many Yanmar or Volvo LCD hour counters are still working after five to ten years?
 
You are asking what you should be paying a surveyor to check. You are not buying a new boat, so everything will be used unless it has just been fitted. Condition of any item is always subjective. What may be serviceable to many, could be a replacement in your eyes. No second hand boat will be perfect, it is finding the one with the least faults that you are prepared to accept.

Asking prices are just that, what you want to know is how little are similar boats selling for. That knowledge will help you decide what you are prepared to pay for a boat.

If you are unhappy just looking at adverts, just wait until you see some of the boats in real life. You will quickly dismiss many within minutes as you may not like the interior layout, the upholstery colours, the interior woodwork condition, how dirty the boat is inside and out, etc. Try and find a boat that has been regularly used as the equipment will more likely have been looked after and serviced. Always buy the best condition boat you can find, it will cost more to buy, but cost less in repairs and replacements.

It may seem strange, but 85% of boats in marinas rarely leave their berth during the season. They are used as floating cottages and sailed for a fortnights holiday.

Just remember the best 2 days of yacht ownership are the day you buy it and the day you sell it.
 
If an engine doesn't have an hour meter or it doesn't work isn't the point. If these are the facts let the ad reflect them
The questions of engine hours, rigging age and age and model of an autopilot aren't subjective they are questions of fact. As for sails, "serviceable" seems to be a euphemism for knackered. I also don't buy the idea that owners don't keep invoices for substantial investments in such a significant asset When I am trying to gather information from ads, it's the first stage in the sifting process, sorting out the wheat from the chaff.Down the years, I have bought 7 classic cars and one aircraft and I've got to say that this part of the process was a lot more open and transparent.
 
francophile51 said:
Why is it that so many for sale ads lack the key elements such as engine hours, age and condition of sails, age of standing rigging and the type and vintage of the autopilot? On websites like Moody owners, it gets even more coy when some sellers can't even bring themselves to disclose the asking price. I recently enquired after a boat and after making my way through the seven veils of such meaningless terms as " serviceable", it turned out that the rigging, sails and instruments and autopilot all needed replacing.
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Welcome to boat buying.

All of the points you raise are subjective. Your idea of when and what may need replacement are entirely down to your judgment. If the sails go up and down and the boat moves... they are serviceable. If the AP keeps the boat pointing in the right direction, irrespective of age, it’s servicable... etc etc...
 
I would have thought that when looking at an advert any relevant "new" features on a secondhand boat would be flagged up however just saying that a particular sail was new in say 2015 tells you little if you are interested in quality of sails . I guess it's a question of directing your due diligence questions to the broker and maybe thinking about the broker a bit more as being reflective of the owners attitude ( assuming a broker sale). I think the point you make re classic cars at least might not apply to many in the Moody world who might have bought their yachts many years ago as opposed to classic cars which are generally not bought new . In reality if looking for a certain size age and model the market is fairly narrow so with a predetermined list of questions quite easy to fire off to seller surely?
 
photodog said:
Welcome to boat buying.

All of the points you raise are subjective. Your idea of when and what may need replacement are entirely down to your judgment. If the sails go up and down and the boat moves... they are serviceable. If the AP keeps the boat pointing in the right direction, irrespective of age, it’s servicable... etc etc...
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I am sorry but you are simply wrong , the questions are questions of fact. It might help if you had taken the trouble to read through the thread and particularly my second post.
 
A friend and I fell for the classic ‘photo of boat from twenty years ago’ the other night. Second time it’s happened to me.
 
Our last boat is for sale again and broker using our interior photos from years ago which look lovely(of course) but as you say no indication as to what's happened since. I suspect it's down to lazy brokers who cannot be bothered to get down to boat though but it does no good for their reputation if this is their approach surely?
 
francophile51 said:
Down the years, I have bought 7 classic cars and one aircraft and I've got to say that this part of the process was a lot more open and transparent.
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Cars and aircraft need to be registered and have certificates of compliance. This is not so in the boating world. So as I said in my earlier post, you need to view boats to judge for yourself and use a surveyor to confirm things you want to know. However be warned, most surveys have many disclaimers such as the engine should be checked by an engineer, the sails could not be checked so let a sailmaker look at them, the electrical systems works, but employ a marine electrician to check everything is fully safe, etc, etc.

There is also one other big difference between boats and cars/planes - they do not have any brakes!
 
We brought and so,d boats through a broker and privately over 40 years .
Take what you read in ads and brokers listing with a pinch of salt ,
The last boat we sold , was sold mainly just on a video we made ,
It was so long we had to spit it in three , every sq Yd long the hull , keel and in side including engine was filmed . Much better then photos , when the time comes to sell again I be going the same .
 
We will add rigging and engine data as a matter of course to the specs provided by owners and always prefer to use our own up to the minute photos - and if possible a walkthrough video.

Good photography and video is very time consuming and labour intensive, especially when listing mulitiple boats at a time but pays dividends all round.

Here's an example:
http://www.jryachts.com/yachts-for-sale/oyster-56/1776479
 
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Two points:
1) my pet hate is brokers/vendors including in the description fittings that don't work. If they don't work they simply shouldn't be referred to in the description.
2) secondly, and more importantly, as buyers we simply don't know how much boats really sell for. We know how much they are advertised for and, if patient can track reductions in SP's but we don't know the sales price. This where brokers have us over a barrel as I believe they contribute to a 'closed' database of prices actually achieved and can therefore know far more than we do, which is in contrast to house prices actually achieved obtainable through the land registry or the value of 2nd hand cars with thousands changing hands each month. I've often wondered if the Competition and Markets Authority would be interested?
 
jonic said:
We will add rigging and engine data as matter of course to the specs provided by owners and always prefer to use our own up to the minute photos - and if possible a walkthrough video.

Good photography and video is very time consuming and labour intensive, especially when listing mulitiple boats at a time but pays dividends all round.

Here's an example:
http://www.jryachts.com/yachts-for-sale/oyster-56/1776479
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Nice try Jonic but I don't fancy it:ambivalence::sleeping:
 
Rafiki said:
Two points:
1) my pet hate is brokers/vendors including in the description fittings that don't work. If they don't work they simply shouldn't be referred to in the description.
2) secondly, and more importantly, as buyers we simply don't know how much boats really sell for. We know how much they are advertised for and, if patient can track reductions in SP's but we don't know the sales price. This where brokers have us over a barrel as I believe they contribute to a 'closed' database of prices actually achieved and can therefore know far more than we do, which is in contrast to house prices actually achieved obtainable through the land registry or the value of 2nd hand cars with thousands changing hands each month. I've often wondered if the Competition and Markets Authority would be interested?
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You have a point but I not sure how you can compare two boat of the same makes and year , here a good example our boat Has within the last two year had new sails , new 5 Kw gen , new windlass chain and anchor , new water maker, new summer cockpit enclosed and new winter fully encloser , new rigging ,, new sea cock , new batteries banks , new charging system , new panels and just about to be copper coated in a few months
If I was to be selling mine now I be looking at much more then one the same year and model then one that need work done on it ,
Has a buyer I be happy to pay the extra knowing what it cost to bring an old boat up to that standard.
Some are only interested in price and buy on price then they moan even complain about the seller when they have to start spend big money on a boat they just brought.

So knowing what one boat sold for doesn't help .really .
Another example , before I sold my last boat priavtely it was offered to a broker in Greece to be listed , he did have a computer print out what the same year and boats sold for ,we couldn't agree on a price , I felt he was only interested in moving boats on to get his commission and using his list of sold boats to get boats listed lower .
I ended up selling mine privately for 18k more and that's after I took a offer .
 
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Rafiki said:
We know how much they are advertised for and, if patient can track reductions in SP's but we don't know the sales price. This where brokers have us over a barrel as I believe they contribute to a 'closed' database of prices actually achieved and can therefore know far more than we do, which is in contrast to house prices actually achieved obtainable through the land registry or the value of 2nd hand cars with thousands changing hands each month.
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Yes, brokers do have an undisclosed database of prices for which boats were actually sold. I am not a broker, but I have been told so by brokers. Update of this database is made by brokers who are supposed to tell the truth about their sales. I don't know how reliable that information is.

sailaboutvic said:
You have a point but I not sure how you can compare two boat of the same makes and year ,
So knowing what one boat sold for doesn't help .really .
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I agree that comparing two boats on a price level is difficult when you don't know the details about maintenance, installed equipment, etc. But the same is valid for publicly available housing prices which does makes sense for understanding the housing market. In a similar manner you can assess price ranges of boats of a particular brand, size and age. So, yes IMHO it does help to have some understanding of realistic sales prices.
 
For new buyers that's a bit of a nightmare, it's impossibly to compare two boats without having a full survey done on each of them so we have to compare pretty much on price, specs and age alone. A short list is drawn up out of those and then the surveyor invoked. New buyers often don't know what they are looking for when trying to spot damage and so on.

It also seems that some boat owners are being very optimistic about what their boats can fetch in comparison to what is potentially available. I'm quite sure the brokers are charging them a fee to list/manage and rubbing their hands with glee as they'll be on the books for a very long time.

I completely agree with the OP that some of the terms used are neither objective nor sensible. There seems to be no common definitions as some have also pointed out but again, that's what the surveyors for. What gets me at the moment is, "Tax not paid." That infuriates (exaggeration for effect) me!
 
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