Yachts for Sale Descriptions

[NotBirdseye]

Because it means that the price displayed is not accurate, in that case it often means that when going through all the boats in my criteria that I get a lot of boats that appear within my budget but in reality are outside of my budget. (All boats that don't include tax, when it is applicable to them get dropped from my shortlist. It's easier on my calculations and there are plenty of boats that have included the tax to choose from).

 

[PHN]

Because it means that the price displayed is not accurate, in that case it often means that when going through all the boats in my criteria that I get a lot of boats that appear within my budget but in reality are outside of my budget. (All boats that don't include tax, when it is applicable to them get dropped from my shortlist. It's easier on my calculations and there are plenty of boats that have included the tax to choose from).

There is another story to that. Boats that are priced without VAT can be purchased without VAT if buyer is either a VAT registered business in UK/EU or an individual from outside UK/EU (omitting the Brexit UK/EU VAT debate). Boats that are priced including VAT for sale by an individual cannot be sold without VAT - nor offer VAT deduction. Hence, for certain buyers it does make a big difference.

 

[NotBirdseye]

I completely get that, but as an individual it's maddening XD! (Mostly because they don't offer the alternative calculation). I'm sure however, I'll discover more maddening things as time goes on. Time for some yoga...

 

[Spyro]

You are asking what you should be paying a surveyor to check. You are not buying a new boat, so everything will be used unless it has just been fitted. Condition of any item is always subjective.

I don’t think so, by the time you have a survey you have agreed on a sale price. For me I’d want to know the age of rigging, sails and engine hours before I’d make an offer. A surveyor is paid to find out the faults that aren’t obvious. Not many sellers are going to give you money off after an agreed price for items like sails or rigging.

 

[NotBirdseye]

I don’t think so, by the time you have a survey you have agreed on a sale price. For me I’d want to know the age of rigging, sails and engine hours before I’d make an offer. A surveyor is paid to find out the faults that aren’t obvious. Not many sellers are going to give you money off after an agreed price for items like sails or rigging.

Really? My plan is to get the surveyor first before agreeing any sort of price. (Because I haven't the first clue in whether a boat is suitable to buy or not). You're saying that plan isn't possible?

 

[davethedog]

Just adding to the OPs opening comment about the Moody owners association and the shocking state of some of the for sale adverts, I mean stick a bloody price up! That way you would know if it is worth getting in touch or not.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Really? My plan is to get the surveyor first before agreeing any sort of price. (Because I haven't the first clue in whether a boat is suitable to buy or not). You're saying that plan isn't possible?

It's possible but most broker will want you to sign a contract and pay a deposit, why should any of us have our boat pulled apart and maybe damage without having a contact ,
Has for price, you don't have to agree anything ,
The contract could read price negotiate after the Survey but what after you spend all that money the seller refused to move on his price .
Suggest you find someone who know a bit about boats and take him with you to view ,
Suggest you make a offer subject there no marjor fault , most contracts are written in that way any way .
Suggestion any minon fauit that are not listed are subject to negotiation.
And most important suggest you do some research on the type of boat that would suit you before wasting your money and other people time

 

[sailaboutvic]

Just adding to the OPs opening comment about the Moody owners association and the shocking state of some of the for sale adverts, I mean stick a bloody price up! That way you would know if it is worth getting in touch or not.

I don't see why people don't put the price on their ad , find that very strange alto it cost nothing to send a email and ask how much there looking for .

 

[NotBirdseye]

It's possible but most broker will want you to sign a contract and pay a deposit, I for sure would any way , why should any of us have our boat pulled apart and maybe damage without having a contact , as for price agree what you like and negotiate after the Survey but what after you spen all that money the seller refused to move on his price .

The cost of the survey I'm perfectly okay with, it tells me whether I want to walk away from the deal or not. If seller is not prepared to budge (or I think the boat isn't worth the repair costs), I'll let the seller know and walk away. A survey is non-destructive and no damage should ever be incurred (will promptly go after the surveyor if any damage is done). I think any buyer is entitled to have a full view of what they are purchasing before any money changes hands. If that means pulling the boat out of the water (of course paid for by the potential buyer) without deposit/contract, so be it. That's how it worked when I've done other large purchases, but it seems boats are their own special case.

If the survey is a £2,000 and the boat is £12,000 and the surveyor says, "Run." Then he's saved me £10,000 and probably no end of repair costs. You have to be prepared to walk away from a deal at the end of the day.

Edit: Oops, I wasn't actually intending to bring Brexit into this thread.

 

[sailaboutvic]

The cost of the survey I'm perfectly okay with, it tells me whether I want to walk away from the deal or not. If seller is not prepared to budge (or I think the boat isn't worth the repair costs), I'll let the seller know and walk away. A survey is non-destructive and no damage should ever be incurred (will promptly go after the surveyor if any damage is done). I think any buyer is entitled to have a full view of what they are purchasing before any money changes hands. If that means pulling the boat out of the water (of course paid for by the potential buyer) without deposit/contract, so be it. That's how it worked when I've done other large purchases, but it seems boats are their own special case.

If the survey is a £2,000 and the boat is £12,000 and the surveyor says, "Run." Then he's saved me £10,000 and probably no end of repair costs. You have to be prepared to walk away from a deal at the end of the day.

Edit: Oops, I wasn't actually intending to bring Brexit into this thread.

Understand what your saying we sold and brought boats over 40 years , some privately as I not a big fan of brokers .
Just to give you some picture how it work ,
You view a boat , as many times you like no cost , once you decide your interested , you make a offer .
That's followed a contract and a deposit , a lot of broker will have the contract quite tight , as in unless there major faults i.e. Engine , gearbox case of the pox which isn't reported before hand it's isn't easy to back out with lost of deposit or some of it at less .
That's followed by a survey which you pay all the cost including haul out and in hard standing and May be pressure wash .
Once that's sorted if no major fault found you can sort out a sea trial , now here the bit many don't understand , a sea trail has nothing to do with how the boat sails or point , it's all about testing equipment that can't be tested on land i.e. Engine , box so on .
Once that done full payment made and away you go to spend more money on your pride and joy every month , and I not joking .

Minor fauit found are normally agreed with some cost ajustment some time as we done is do the repair before hand over , most seller want to sell so they will normally sort some thing out .
But don't expect to get cash ajustment because the survey found a few dents or a mark inside here or there .
That's all part of buying an second hand boat .

 

[NotBirdseye]

Thank you for your advice, that does clear up a few things. I've found a surveyor that's happy to do a pre-sale walk around (offering it as a service) so that's one option. Thankfully, haul outs and a wash down is not as expensive as some would like me to believe but that does depend on where the boat is I guess. Seems like it would be (in theory, probably not in practice) better to buy a boat that's already on hard standing. Of course, this will restrict how many boats I can have surveyed each year :/.

And I am aware you're not joking about that every month expenditure!

And unless the expense is over £500 to fix, I'm unlikely to quibble, but I do want to know all of the problems so that I can make myself a checklist and tick them off as they're done.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Second part
This lead me to surveyor, someone like your self there no doubt you need to employ a surveyor , personally knowing what I know I not sure they worth the money they charge .
As already said else where there many important parts of the boat that they don't check as one would expect they would .
Rigging , I only every seen a visible inspection and I seen many survey , I never seen one climba mast , normally you need to pay a rigger if you want a rig survey.
Engine and box they will run the engine and check for sound , noise smoke , they check oil and what it looks like and that's about it , if you want oil tested you need to send it away , but if it just been change there no point , you really you need a engineer to give the engine a good going over .
So what are you paying for ?
A moisture test on the hull , their expert opinion of keel bolts rudders and hull which is some thing most of us are not experienced or seen enough to estimate the condition.
The rest is a visual survey basically which most of us can do any way , who have had experience with boats ,
we can all turn on electronics and see if they work , we can all see dent scatch .
And if they do miss some thing done expect to sue them , you find some thing in the small print to safe safe gaurd them .

 

[jonic]

Nice try Jonic but I don't fancy it:ambivalence::sleeping:

I never said you could have it....

 

[photodog]

I am sorry but you are simply wrong , the questions are questions of fact. It might help if you had taken the trouble to read through the thread and particularly my second post.

I did read your second post, but I wasn't addressing that. What I was addressing was Your first post and the presumption that somehow the concepts you expressed where definable in fact... they are not... and even in your second post where you say these facts should be given, they will not define the sevicability or condition of those items.

Your seeking precision and consistency where none exists, the condition and values for these items are device dependent, and even then these conditions and values will vary in their nature according to individual stakeholders.

Welcome to the world of boat buying, It’s the ultimate free market where buyer must beware.

 

[LittleSister]

Welcome to boat buying.

All of the points you raise are subjective. Your idea of when and what may need replacement are entirely down to your judgment. If the sails go up and down and the boat moves... they are serviceable. If the AP keeps the boat pointing in the right direction, irrespective of age, it’s servicable... etc etc...

I am sorry but you are simply wrong , the questions are questions of fact. It might help if you had taken the trouble to read through the thread and particularly my second post.

No, Photodog is not wrong. He offered you good advice.

More fool you if you think either that a term like 'serviceable' cannot include something that another owner might replace, or that being so rude to people responding politely to your posts is a good way to introduce yourself to the forum.

 

[sailaboutvic]

No, Photodog is not wrong. He offered you good advice.

More fool you if you think either that a term like 'serviceable' cannot include something that another owner might replace, or that being so rude to people responding politely to your posts is a good way to introduce yourself to the forum.

Cool down , the guy new to this , us who been here a very long time should by now know , how some Posting can be mistaken for some thing else , my posting at time can be read at times has confrontation, when really they not .

 

[francophile51]

I am sorry if you believe that my response was rude. I tend to get a bit tetchy when I'm told more than once that facts are not facts. I'm going to try again. I am simply asking for the facts of a boat to be included in a description. I specifically singled out engine hours, age of rigging and sails and the age and model of autopilot because they are going to be costly to replace. Having acquired those facts, you have then a basis for comparisons with similar vessels and their asking prices. I don't imagine for a second that this will be the end of the story but it gives you a means of performing an initial analysis of the "condition" of essential elements and value for money. In fact, it does more than that. If the rigging, sails and AP have been replaced it might suggest that the owner is a sailor and that his enthusiasm might feed into a conscientious overall approach to upkeep. Similarly, I try to look beyond the images of the boat. I think that you can tell a lot from the "housekeeping". My motivation is to try and avoid that dreadful moment when having just driven 200 miles you are presented with a lemon.
A final word on " serviceable". A spray hood might be serviceable because it stops water from dripping down your neck even though it's window might be opaque, stitching undone and fastenings broken. "As new, very good, good, poor and needs replacing"might give much less scope for ambiguity. A final final word. If the information isn't in the ad I will ask for it so it will save brokers, owners and interested parties like me a lot of wasted time if it's provided in the first place.

 

[DJE]

"If the information isn't in the ad I will ask for it"

Seems like the obvious solution.

 

[rotrax]

I am sorry if you believe that my response was rude. I tend to get a bit tetchy when I'm told more than once that facts are not facts. I'm going to try again. I am simply asking for the facts of a boat to be included in a description. I specifically singled out engine hours, age of rigging and sails and the age and model of autopilot because they are going to be costly to replace. Having acquired those facts, you have then a basis for comparisons with similar vessels and their asking prices. I don't imagine for a second that this will be the end of the story but it gives you a means of performing an initial analysis of the "condition" of essential elements and value for money. In fact, it does more than that. If the rigging, sails and AP have been replaced it might suggest that the owner is a sailor and that his enthusiasm might feed into a conscientious overall approach to upkeep. Similarly, I try to look beyond the images of the boat. I think that you can tell a lot from the "housekeeping". My motivation is to try and avoid that dreadful moment when having just driven 200 miles you are presented with a lemon.
A final word on " serviceable". A spray hood might be serviceable because it stops water from dripping down your neck even though it's window might be opaque, stitching undone and fastenings broken. "As new, very good, good, poor and needs replacing"might give much less scope for ambiguity. A final final word. If the information isn't in the ad I will ask for it so it will save brokers, owners and interested parties like me a lot of wasted time if it's provided in the first place.

The best advice that I can give you based upon the purchase of thousands of Motorcycles and cars during a 50 year career in the vehicle trade plus the personal purchase of 5 yachts within the last 17 years and helping with the survey of several more is the following:-

' Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see! '

Jonic does the job as well as any broker I have ever met-in fact better.

Trouble is, they are not all as good.

We have always sold our boats well, but we put the hours in presenting them properly.

In my direct experience, not all brokers/owners bother.

That appears to be the significant difference.

 

[NotBirdseye]

If it isn't in the Ad it's probably broken!

Which is why I worry when they list boats without beam measurements. >.>