yachtmaster

If you are not happy with the stopping distance mentioned then,when you reckon you will be close to the buoy,this being achieved by DR and EP and contour following and radar if you want. slow right down, If you were using radar or contour following to a chosen buoy on that contour, you would approach the buoy with an aim to be off to one side, best down tide, so you could identify it. therefore you have a definite check of your position. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I personally would like a verification of my position when ever I could get one, and by choosing if poss a 5 or 2 m contour line or an area between them , depending on hight of tide I know I would be away from any big boys that could run be down.
 
I tried telling him this one ... but he insists on ignoring the more practicle answers ... and decide he's going to argue with Brendan ... then change the "discussion" from "what it it's merit in a prac exam" ... to "well, you wouldn't do it in a real situation"

With Gludy, everything has to be black and white:
in senario A do X
in senario B do Y

but what if it isn't quite like either A or B ??
 
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If the god of all instructors arrived on my boat and asked me to do something I did not understand, I would question it. If then the instructor could not answer or did not answer the question, I would not be able to accept that.


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Gludy, the instructor would first show you how to do it. Then you would understand and be able to do it yourself. You would then understand the reason behind the exercise.
This is why if you are going to do a YM practical you really should do the prep course.

In real conditions you would be unlkely to want to find a buoy except as a reference to where you are, you would really only look for a harbour or some safe water to anchor until the fog clears. However, the instructor/examiner needs to give you something to aim for as there are not enough harbours for all candidates to blind nav to. A buoy in safe water is an ideal exercise. And yes, you can navigate to within 10 metres of it. The buoy chosen is on a depth contour so you will find it. The inaccuracy of your EP's is not important. You may see the buoy slightly before or after you expect to.
Also, the bit about 5 knots..... you would not travel at 5 knots in that vis. You would always work up tide if possible so that you have steerage without too much speed over the ground.

Why not book yourself on a weekend course and specify learning blind nav, or if you have your own boat, invite some members of this forum to join you on your boat and demonstrate?
 
"I've never seen a wet t-shirt competition where the wearer gets it back dry. Hand it back to me, and I'll make sure the young lady gets her T-shirt back "

Your assumptions are getting better all the time .... keep practicing!
 
"I will grant you that 10m is pretty dense fog, so lets make it 30m. It really is not that important, it is an excercise to see how you cope in such a situation. "

I have a;ready stated that it was the seeing distance.time that mattered and that 30 metres was not a problem. So we are agreed.
 
(Unusually) I have a little bit of sympathy for Gludy's position but thats by-the-by.

BrendanS -
I assume all this advice you are shoving at Gludy is based on your own experience? When and where did you take the YM Pract.? How did it go?
(if you have already presented these credentials somewhere above I apologise in advance)
 
Powerskipper - I have already stated that with radar there is not a problem but the assumption is that there is no radar. So you are not discussing the point I made.

The point I made I shall repeat again - without radar, just with depth, log, watch and compass, I think it would be foolhardy to aim for objects that only gave you a few seconds warning to avoid hitting them after you spot them.
It really is as simple as that. if the distance was say 30 metres - its a different story.
 
Fireball - you are totally missing the point - the discussion is based on the few seconds you would have in 10 m visibility to miss a buoy - that is balck and white, given that distance the answer is a fact. I just cannot accept that you cannot see the simplicity of that point.

Powerskipper has just introduced radar into the picure when i had already stated that I have no problem in doing it with radar.

It baffles me why such a sinmple factual point cannot be seen for what it is.
 
a nice summary.



You may see the buoy slightly before or after you expect to. - esp if the crew are perhaps a little generous in their interpretation of 10m.


But that's exams for you. some bits may be theoretical situations that attempt to show whether or not you can make a stab at xxx - not really attempting to precisely mimic some real-life situation.

Like say a car driving test - you'll need to make looks in mirrors very obvious - or give running commentary; even tho in real life you might not move yr head. But examiner is paid to do what he's told & that includes confirming appropriate use of mirrors, so unless he reads minds it's best to make it very apparent that you do.



Opps -I forgot to suggest that Gludy doesn't know what he's doing /should buy a smaller boat/get some miles in/take up another pastime/stop asking questions etc etc
 
"then he should adapt to the situation.
as any good skipper should do,

as we all know the sea is unforgiving or not the same each day. "

But that comment has no meaning in the context of the factual seeing distance/time in the scenerio under discussion!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
"Gludy, the instructor would first show you how to do it. Then you would understand and be able to do it yourself. You would then understand the reason behind the exercise.
This is why if you are going to do a YM practical you really should do the prep course."

That totally misses the point - the point was that questions have to be answered. in this case, as predicted, one intuctor Sun Coast has just answered but had to change the distance by increasing the visibility up from 10 metres - so on a course I would have asked and he would have said what he only just said now which was Ok the 10 m is a bit tightm lets assume 20 to 30 metres.


As regards the rest of your points - I agree with them. I understaqnd and endorse the logic of why you are taught this way but I did that long ago in this thread - that was never the issue.


"Why not book yourself on a weekend course and specify learning blind nav, or if you have your own boat, invite some members of this forum to join you on your boat and demonstrate? "

You are assuming I have a problem with blind nav - I do not. I have aproblem only with heading for massive solid objects that can appear out of the fog without sufficient time to miss them!!!

I started by saying that the variable that had to give here was the vis distance and I was right - this has doubled to trebled. That is the only point I was making. I am alos sure that id I was standing in front of any of the two instructors on thsi thread and made the point, they would have answered as one has done now - that Ok, 10 m is a bit tioght so lets call it 20 to 30 m ... I would have accepted that answer and the whole thing would have been over in seconds, instead of this process which is like pulling teeth. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
"I saw 3 students last week find a buoy without radar, just following contours. "

If you read what I have written I have already stated that once you have found a contour you could probably find the bouy by following it BUT that is not the issue.

For the hundreth time ... the issue is that it would be dangerous to do that with only log, watch, depth and compass if the time you had to take avoiding action was a mere few seconds and that would be the case in 10 m of fog. .... do you agree?
 
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"I saw 3 students last week find a buoy without radar, just following contours. "

If you read what I have written I have already stated that once you have found a contour you could probably find the bouy by following it BUT that is not the issue.

For the hundreth time ... the issue is that it would be dangerous to do that with only log, watch, depth and compass if the time you had to take avoiding action was a mere few seconds and that would be the case in 10 m of fog. .... do you agree?

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and for the thousandth time ... you would not approach a stationary object at 5 knotsx .... you don't berth at 5 knots do you ?? So why would you expect to approach a buoy at 5 knots when you have very little vis (fog isn't constant as you must know ... so 10m-30m vis could be expected in 1 fog bang), especially if you don't have RADAR

So, as stated several times before ... you run in at slow speed (bearing in mind you MUST comply with colregs and the vis/speed requirements therein) and when you get closer you drop your speed ... how come you find that SO difficult to comprehend ??

We've answered your questions so many times, yet you continue to bash away, ignoring the bits that answer your questions and badgering those that give you any other sort of answer. There is a reason why ppl like PS are instructors and you are not ... it is called Understanding and Tollerance.... IMO, neither virtue can be attributed to you...
 
PowerSkipper - thank you for the answer.

I find it amazing because this is what you advocate-

In a situation with only 1.5 seconds to 3 seconds warning from the helm, maybe up to 9 seconds warning from a lookout on the bow you aim for solid objects using depth contours. By the time the Lookout has made it clear what he has spotted and where it is, you would not have sufficient time to avoid it anyway.

The method is so accurate that you can precise enough to always be sure of getting to one side of the buoy and being within 30 foot of it to spot it. So in the Bristol Channel for example with depths changing as fast as 12 foot in an hour and so be changing as you follow the contour, you can always compensate and be that accurate!

That these few seconds are a safe time to spot the object, because of your super accurate EP, appearing on say your port bow and hence need no avoiding action because you never can hit !!!!

I am sorry but you cannot be serious.

I have no problem with following the depth contours and finding the buoy within say 30 metres although half way through Bristol Channel tides when they the height is rapidly changing, this could be a problem with accuracy. So I have no problem with what I think you mean by practicing it because I can avoid bumping into the buoys in those conditions. I do have a problem practicing heading to pass within 30 foot of objects that offer me insufficinet time after spotting to take avoiding action!!

What I am saying is very, very simple - when visibility is say 5 to 10 foot further than your bow, you should not aim for objects or even aim near to objects that you have no chance of missing, after spotting, should you be heading for them...... its that simple.

I still think you are not considering the lack of time and the visibility you are talking about. the only way i could simulate it is to have someone outside watching and only issuing a warning to me about 3 seconds before I hit it - I am not going to do that. Nor I am sure would you wait like that to give the student only that time to avoid a collision.

So please reconsider your position on this because currently it does not make sense. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
"and for the thousandth time ... you would not approach a stationary object at 5 knotsx .... you don't berth at 5 knots do you ?? So why would you expect to approach a buoy at 5 knots when you have very little vis (fog isn't constant as you must know ... so 10m-30m vis could be expected in 1 fog bang), especially if you don't have RADAR"

That does not make sense.

1. You do not know the stationary object is there so you cannot slow down or be sure of being that precise that you alwyas know when to slow down.

2. You are changing the vis distance - I have already agreed that 30 m is no problem.

"So, as stated several times before ... you run in at slow speed (bearing in mind you MUST comply with colregs and the vis/speed requirements therein) and when you get closer you drop your speed ... how come you find that SO difficult to comprehend ??"

How do you know you are getting closer? You cannot be sure enough of being that accurate in the real world.

"We've answered your questions so many times, yet you continue to bash away, ignoring the bits that answer your questions and badgering those that give you any other sort of answer. There is a reason why ppl like PS are instructors and you are not ... it is called Understanding and Tollerance.... IMO, neither virtue can be attributed to you... "

If you look at how this developed, you will see that i was really trying to understand the issue. Sun_Coast has answered and I have no problem with the answer at all. Power Skipper has just answered and I have a probelmn with the answer and I am trying to debate the issue noy just make gebral smearing remarks.

In fact I am sure face to face the answers from both would have been over in seconds.

The simple fact is that i consider it dangerous in a real life situation, withjout radar, without even a plotter, with visibility down to 10 metres allowing some 5 to ten foot of visibilitypast your bow to head for large solid objects that when spotted do not allow sufficient time to avoid hitting ..... that in a njtshell is my point. if you want to make a positive contribution try dealijg with that issue. Nor can I accept your slowing down before bit because that assumes an accuracy of both time and location that the method does not posess.
 
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30 metres although half way through Bristol Channel tides when they the height is rapidly changing

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thats what tidal graphs are for.

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What I am saying is very, very simple - when visibility is say 5 to 10 foot further than your bow, you should not aim for objects or even aim near to objects that you have no chance of missing, after spotting, should you be heading for them...... its that simple.


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I said slow down, this would be marina manoeuvring speed.
 
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