Yachtmaster Ocean

[mattonthesea]

"The RYA Yachtmaster® Offshore is competent to skipper a cruising yacht on any passage during which the yacht is no more than 150 miles from harbour."

This one puzzles me. Do I become incompetent once I'm 151 miles from harbour? Joke!

This is the same in many forms of qualifications. You have to go beyond the remit of the previous qualification in order to get the next one. Eg. pilots fly solo long before they get their pilot's licence.

 

[[70521]]

Navigators aren't born, they taught.

I'm not so sure. Many have a natural sense of where they on the planet. Others struggle to learn the basics.

Many years ago I spent a few days with a chap who wanted to join our 'friends in Heriford' in order to brush up his mountain navigation, by noon on day one it was clear he had no idea. By the end of day two he could work out the four major compass points and use them on foot.

 

[zoidberg]

I'm not so sure. Many have a natural sense of where they on the planet. Others struggle to learn the basics.

Part of the problem is how we - er, you - internalise external visual information.... how you, or I, construct a mental map or picture or 'paradigm' of what is where and how it all inter-relates. Some can 'manipulate' this mental model - turn it around, view it from on high and from low. Others struggle with such perceptual acuity. It is argued that one's pre-school toys may have some influence on the development of such 'visual acuity'.

This becomes apparent when considering the use some make of map and chart information. Some can perceive the symbols, colours and shading as relative heights and depths, building them into a mental model which approximates to the physical reality to a greater or lesser-detailed extent. Others seem to think in 'plan form' only, quite unable to relate e.g hill shading and contours to that steep-sided mountain over there. Much the same goes on afloat, with the relatively-unskilled perceiving a flat sea surface, a flat paper chart, and a flat chartplotter much as a 'Flat Earther' thinks.

Perhaps that's what so many yotties run aground.

 

[zoidberg]

.....in order to brush up his mountain navigation, by noon on day one it was clear he had no idea. By the end of day two he could work out the four major compass points and use them on foot.

There's much to learn from even a superficial study of the many clever tricks employed by little beasties in 'animal navigation'.....
Investigation - or even simple realisation - of the near-incredible feats accomplished by, say, Atlantic Salmon, Bees, Eels, Arctic Terns or Monarch Butterflies in their migrations leads one to think 'Why can I not do that? Why do I, with one of the largest and best-developed brains on the planet, need Garmin to find a McDonalds or TomTom to find Birmingham....?'

The mental concept of a super-imposed rectilinear grid, be it Ordnance or Hydrographic, onto the surface to which we can relate towns, harbours and points of interest isn't the only one which works. The concept of a 'polar coordinates' arrangement, in which suitable individuals have both an innate and a developed awareness of Range and Distance to the nearest good pub is both sound and economic of effort. Bees do just that. So do many humans I know.

Yachtmeister Instructors, try it! Next time you have someone who struggles with getting their head around Lat and Long, to say nuttin about Departure and Ch.Long, try asking them to point the direction to the nearest hostelry and how long/how far/ away it is. You may be surprised! That's a Waypoint...

There's a mental model we all seem to have, and that can be developed and refined.

 

[IanR]

There's much to learn from even a superficial study of the many clever tricks employed by little beasties in 'animal navigation'.....
Investigation - or even simple realisation - of the near-incredible feats accomplished by, say, Atlantic Salmon, Bees, Eels, Arctic Terns or Monarch Butterflies in their migrations leads one to think 'Why can I not do that? Why do I, with one of the largest and best-developed brains on the planet, need Garmin to find a McDonalds or TomTom to find Birmingham....?'

The mental concept of a super-imposed rectilinear grid, be it Ordnance or Hydrographic, onto the surface to which we can relate towns, harbours and points of interest isn't the only one which works. The concept of a 'polar coordinates' arrangement, in which suitable individuals have both an innate and a developed awareness of Range and Distance to the nearest good pub is both sound and economic of effort. Bees do just that. So do many humans I know.

Yachtmeister Instructors, try it! Next time you have someone who struggles with getting their head around Lat and Long, to say nuttin about Departure and Ch.Long, try asking them to point the direction to the nearest hostelry and how long/how far/ away it is. You may be surprised! That's a Waypoint...

There's a mental model we all seem to have, and that can be developed and refined.

Funnily enough - that is an exercise I do with my students. I ask them to enter a single waypoint into the Garmin Etrex and navigate a complicated pilotage out go the Golfe of Morbihan. The skill is to choose an easy point to navigate with. They are amazed at how a DTW and a BTW can be used for complex pilotage.

 

[Daydream believer]

They are amazed at how a DTW and a BTW can be used for complex pilotage.

I would probably be amazed if I knew what DTW & BTW stood for. I wish people would stop using abreviations first time round.. But I have been to the Gulf du Moribhan & did not find it so difficult. Fun really.

As for the sextant I think that can easily understand the principles. Having learned how to use a theodolite at college back in 1965, I can probably read one as quick as the next man & adjust for errors. However, I can see 2 problems.
First there is no way I could hold one still enough to get a reading on my 31 ft yacht. Perhaps that is why people chose long keelers for offshore passages. I cannot see how anyone could possibly get a sensible reading on a boat constantly rolling through 30+ degrees, even in the slightest of seas

Second, I have asked others to point out the North star many times & try as I might, I have never been able to find it. I can easily find the Plough, but from there on, all dots in the sky look the same. I did spot what i thought was Venus, blinking in the sky once, but as it was moving at 500MPH I think it was probably on its way to Berlin.

Back in 1960 I was taken to the London Planetarium with the school. There I saw a brilliant presentation of the night sky in the time of Jesus. The presenter gave short stories of Aeries, Torus the bull, Orion etc etc & showed with a pointer how the stars fitted the shapes which were projected on the night sky. Years later I took my kids & it was a silly lazer show. A total waste of time & a lost opportunity to show the young something about the stars in the sky.
If the original show still existed I would go just to remind myself where everything is.
Perhaps then I could find some stars

 

[capnsensible]

I would probably be amazed if I knew what DTW & BTW stood for. I wish people would stop using abreviations first time round.. But I have been to the Gulf du Moribhan & did not find it so difficult. Fun really.

As for the sextant I think that can easily understand the principles. Having learned how to use a theodolite at college back in 1965, I can probably read one as quick as the next man & adjust for errors. However, I can see 2 problems.
First there is no way I could hold one still enough to get a reading on my 31 ft yacht. Perhaps that is why people chose long keelers for offshore passages. I cannot see how anyone could possibly get a sensible reading on a boat constantly rolling through 30+ degrees, even in the slightest of seas

Second, I have asked others to point out the North star many times & try as I might, I have never been able to find it. I can easily find the Plough, but from there on, all dots in the sky look the same. I did spot what i thought was Venus, blinking in the sky once, but as it was moving at 500MPH I think it was probably on its way to Berlin.

Back in 1960 I was taken to the London Planetarium with the school. There I saw a brilliant presentation of the night sky in the time of Jesus. The presenter gave short stories of Aeries, Torus the bull, Orion etc etc & showed with a pointer how the stars fitted the shapes which were projected on the night sky. Years later I took my kids & it was a silly lazer show. A total waste of time & a lost opportunity to show the young something about the stars in the sky.
If the original show still existed I would go just to remind myself where everything is.
Perhaps then I could find some stars

Practice, old chap, practice.

 

[zoidberg]

The skill is to choose an easy point to navigate with.....

I was thinking more of the Turks Head on St Agnes, the Rising Sun at St Mawes, or even the Devonport Inn at Cawsand.

I'm sure some more exotic locations can be thunk up for YMO candidates....

 

[zoidberg]

First there is no way I could hold one still enough to get a reading on my 31 ft yacht. Perhaps that is why people chose long keelers for offshore passages. I cannot see how anyone could possibly get a sensible reading on a boat constantly rolling through 30+ degrees, even in the slightest of seas

Some have what it takes. Others ain't.....

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I'm not so sure. Many have a natural sense of where they on the planet. Others struggle to learn the basics.

That's perfectly true. I am lucky - I have a good sense of "where I am", to the extent that on one occasion when reality didn't match where I thought I was I felt extremely disorientated! But others (my late wife was one) have no innate sense of direction, and in fact, the best way of finding your way when with her was to turn in the opposite direction to her - she was wrong more often than right!

Some have what it takes. Others ain't.....

In that sea, what's he using for a horizon?

 

[zoidberg]

In that sea, what's he using for a horizon?

Can't help you - dont know the French for 'Best guess'......


There IS a technique, I'm told, but it doesn't respond well to 'Distance Learning'.

 

[Skylark]

I would probably be amazed if I knew what DTW & BTW stood for. I wish people would stop using abreviations first time round.. But I have been to the Gulf du Moribhan & did not find it so difficult. Fun really.

Distance to waypoint, bearing to waypoint

First there is no way I could hold one still enough to get a reading on my 31 ft yacht. Perhaps that is why people chose long keelers for offshore passages.

I just love the humour in your threads

Second, I have asked others to point out the North star many times & try as I might, I have never been able to find it. I can easily find the Plough, but from there on, all dots in the sky look the same.

If you can find the Plough, you're almost there.

Try Googling it, too. There's much advice including several YouTube videos. (Credit to a Google search for the screen grab).

Something to entertain yourself on a frosty night

 

[requiem]

I'm not so sure. Many have a natural sense of where they on the planet. Others struggle to learn the basics.

I wonder how much of that comes down to simple awareness of one's surroundings. Doing some hill walking the other week, someone asked me about compass directions, and then how I knew them before pulling out the compass. They simply hadn't realised that one could do that based on the sun ("it's still morning, isn't it to the east?"). A bit later, in a narrow valley, it occurred to me that I still had sunlight and shadow cues far up the hillside that served a similar purpose.

Part of the problem is how we - er, you - internalise external visual information.... how you, or I, construct a mental map or picture or 'paradigm' of what is where and how it all inter-relates. Some can 'manipulate' this mental model - turn it around, view it from on high and from low. Others struggle with such perceptual acuity. It is argued that one's pre-school toys may have some influence on the development of such 'visual acuity'.

Some time ago I learnt that a some of the population simply lacks such a "mind's eye". The term, for those inclined to search out more, is "aphantasia". I'm not certain how much that impacts navigational ability; a quick glance elsewhere suggests that the impact is not nearly as significant as one might expect, perhaps because this is more a visual sense than a spatial one, or that those affected simply find other ways to adapt.

My own guess is that there's a significant navigational gap between those who are able to place themselves in a landscape, and those who view locations in the landscape as relative to them. (In the former, the person moves across the surface of the map, instead of the person remaining static and the objects moving and rotating around them.) This is not the quite same as the polar-rectilinear shift mentioned above. Rather, it's the difference between the only mental "anchor" being oneself and then following a sequence of directions, vs using external points as anchors.

 

[Black Sheep]

If you can find the Plough, you're almost there.
...
Try Googling it, too. There's much advice including several YouTube videos. (Credit to a Google search for the screen grab).

One other bit of advice, which it took me an embarassingly long time to twig...

For a given location, the Pole Star is always in exactly the same place, all night, every night, throughout the year.

So, go to your back garden or local dark spot. Make the effort to find it once. Using Skylark's picture, or Youtube, or Stellarium, or whatever; but make the effort. Just once. Look where the Pole Star is in the sky (eg over the top of that tree, but about ye much higher). Go back tomorrow; you should be able to find it again because you'll know exactly where to look. Try at different times of the night / times of the year, when the surrounding constellations are in different orientations. It will always be in the same place, (over the top of that tree, but about ye much higher). Once you can reliably spot it from your own garden, you can try from other locations. It'll be harder because you won't have that tree, and also with different levels of light pollution it'll be a different brightness. But you'll get there.

From Essex, the Pole Star will always be due North, and always about 52 degrees above the horizon

 

[Praxinoscope]

Err, Black Sheep #74, this only works if you are in the Northern Hemisphere, any further into the Southern Hemisphere beyond about 1 degree and the Pole Star isn’t visible, just one of the things you learn when you do the YMO.

 

[Daydream believer]

One other bit of advice, which it took me an embarassingly long time to twig...

For a given location, the Pole Star is always in exactly the same place, all night, every night, throughout the year.

So, go to your back garden or local dark spot. Make the effort to find it once. Using Skylark's picture, or Youtube, or Stellarium, or whatever; but make the effort. Just once. Look where the Pole Star is in the sky (eg over the top of that tree, but about ye much higher). Go back tomorrow; you should be able to find it again because you'll know exactly where to look. Try at different times of the night / times of the year, when the surrounding constellations are in different orientations. It will always be in the same place, (over the top of that tree, but about ye much higher). Once you can reliably spot it from your own garden, you can try from other locations. It'll be harder because you won't have that tree, and also with different levels of light pollution it'll be a different brightness. But you'll get there.

From Essex, the Pole Star will always be due North, and always about 52 degrees above the horizon

If I see a tree near enough to point at stars when I am out sailing, I do not need a sextant to tell me that i am aground

 

[Black Sheep]

Err, Black Sheep #74, this only works if you are in the Northern Hemisphere, any further into the Southern Hemisphere beyond about 1 degree and the Pole Star isn’t visible, just one of the things you learn when you do the YMO.

Well yes; you don't need YMO to tell you that! Your comment doesn't disagree with my statement. For a given location, Polaris is always in the same direction (North) and elevation. In the Southern hemispehere the elevation is negative, ie below the horizon.

My post was not intended to enable navigation, but directed to Daydream Believer, who was having difficulty finding Polaris. He gives his location as Essex. If he'd said New South Wales I'd have different advice for him.

 

[Graham_Wright]

I would probably be amazed if I knew what DTW & BTW stood for. I wish people would stop using abreviations first time round..

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Graham_Wright]

One other bit of advice, which it took me an embarassingly long time to twig...

For a given location, the Pole Star is always in exactly the same place, all night, every night, throughout the year.

So, go to your back garden or local dark spot. Make the effort to find it once. Using Skylark's picture, or Youtube, or Stellarium, or whatever; but make the effort. Just once. Look where the Pole Star is in the sky (eg over the top of that tree, but about ye much higher). Go back tomorrow; you should be able to find it again because you'll know exactly where to look. Try at different times of the night / times of the year, when the surrounding constellations are in different orientations. It will always be in the same place, (over the top of that tree, but about ye much higher). Once you can reliably spot it from your own garden, you can try from other locations. It'll be harder because you won't have that tree, and also with different levels of light pollution it'll be a different brightness. But you'll get there.

From Essex, the Pole Star will always be due North, and always about 52 degrees above the horizon

I first find the Plough which is pretty distinctive, and then sight (I think) 5 times up from the right hand two stars.

I've probably got that wrong but the correction(s), when it comes, will make it clear.

Correction (#72) three and a bit!

 

[Daydream believer]

I first find the Plough which is pretty distinctive, and then sight (I think) 5 times up from the right hand two stars.

I've probably got that wrong but the correction(s), when it comes, will make it clear.

Have you actually looked to see how many stars there are in that area? Bl..y millions!!
I still do not know which one I should be looking at. I may as well lob a dart at the sky & hope