Yacht size and licence requirements - UK?

[RichardS]

Sorry Richard, no link, only a one page hard-copy in Italian and German that was delivered to all boats in my marina, Aprilia Marittima, last week.

Visiting the Carabiniere office in Lignano yesterday had all the makings of a classic comic opera. The desk officer was blowing his top with an Italian skipper who wished to get this document for his departure at the coming weekend.
Officer: Let me see your passport.
Skipper: I don't have it with me, here is my driving licence.
Officer: You are sailing alone?
Skipper: No, my wife will be with me.
Officer: Where is your wife?
Skipper: At home in Milan.
Officer: I must have all who will be on board before me with passports. Next please.

You have indicated before that by being based in Croatia you are not mandated to provide what we who arrive from elsewhere on our own keels need to provide - ship registration, certificate of competence, VHF certificate, insurance certificate - to obtain clearance. So probably you will not be bothered for this extra silly piece of paper.

Very interesting Barnacle. Thank you. Judging by the vast number of Italian flagged boats which stream across the Adriatic every July, it's going to be complete chaos if the Croatians insist on this normally non-existent documentation.

Potentially complete chaos at both the Italian end and the Croatian end I think! :ambivalence:

Richard

 

[BrianH]

Very interesting Barnacle. Thank you. Judging by the vast number of Italian flagged boats which stream across the Adriatic every July, it's going to be complete chaos if the Croatians insist on this normally non-existent documentation.

Potentially complete chaos at both the Italian end and the Croatian end I think! :ambivalence:

Richard

It would appear to be a result of Croatia's worry that the vast number of migrants, fished out of the Mediterranean and daily dumped on Italian shores in their thousands by marine and international NGO rescue vessels, will be carried over by visiting leisure craft. The agreement for it was given at the G7 conference in Taormina, 26-27 May, 2017.

It also has been confirmed that Croatian entry clearance will not be given to any vessel having departed Italy and not in possession of the crew-list stamped by the Italian Carabinieri.

Whilst you may not be required to clear in I think it may be prudent, if you do visit Italy, to obtain this document while there in case you are accosted by a police patrol vessel when entering Croatian waters - after all, your AIS history will give clear indication of your track.

Unfortunately, the Carabinieri do not issue the document, they just control and stamp it after it is filled out like any crew-list - I got mine from my marina office. I assume any harbour master would have copies.

 

[RichardS]

It would appear to be a result of Croatia's worry that the vast number of migrants, fished out of the Mediterranean and daily dumped on Italian shores in their thousands by marine and international NGO rescue vessels, will be carried over by visiting leisure craft.

That strikes me as ridiculous. I can't imagine any migrants who make it, against all the odds, to Italy ever deciding to head eastwards, back in the direction they mostly came from. Surely they will either want to stay in Italy or head North.

Richard

 

[macd]

That strikes me as ridiculous. I can't imagine any migrants who make it, against all the odds, to Italy ever deciding to head eastwards, back in the direction they mostly came from. Surely they will either want to stay in Italy or head North.

Richard

A ridiculous measure, it may be. But most of Italy's migrants come from the south, predominantly from Libya. Many of them began their journey in Africa, particularly Nigeria and Eritrea (not the Eritrea I'm looking at now).

 

[Dockhead]

Yes and No

This is the bit that a lot of people get confused with and (wrongly) assume it is their given right.

There are a lot of countries that do NOT require licences, registrations, mandatory safety equipment, etc... This is valid in the country of flag AND underway in territorial waters of another country. The second you make port that country can (and some will) enforce local legislation. This usually does not happen...but CAN!

recreational boating regulation does NOT fall under EU law and is solely a matter for each country to decide on (trust me... I had to involve the EU comission on my case of non-recognized licences between EU countries)

Professional boating is fully regulated and applies to all EU countries...but not us.

This is correct! It is a myth that boats are somehow extraterritorial, and that local laws never apply.

As a matter of COMITY, many countries will not require licenses any different from what the flag state requires. But not all! Many Mediterranean countries require some kind of license no matter what the flag state requires -- Croatia being particularly notorious for enforcing this.

If Norway requires a license no matter what the flag state requires, they have the right to enforce this requirement when you are in their territorial waters and not on innocent passage!

 

[RichardS]

A ridiculous measure, it may be. But most of Italy's migrants come from the south, predominantly from Libya. Many of them began their journey in Africa, particularly Nigeria and Eritrea (not the Eritrea I'm looking at now).

.... so that means they want to stop heading north once they get to Italy?

Richard

 

[macd]

.... so that means they want to stop heading north once they get to Italy?

No, it means a tenet of your original post was inaccurate. No big deal.

 

[BrianH]

That strikes me as ridiculous. I can't imagine any migrants who make it, against all the odds, to Italy ever deciding to head eastwards, back in the direction they mostly came from. Surely they will either want to stay in Italy or head North.

Richard

That is the official Italian reason given to me by the Carabanieri - requested by Croatia as "Sospensione Schengen".
You may better understand it if you could experience what the mass of migrants are experiencing here in Italy - more and more arriving and no alleviation of their miserable conditions and the dawning realisation that there is little chance of improvement unless they can get out of a veritable prison of squalor and hopelessness - escape to another European country ... any country, even Croatia. There is no chance of work and many are no longer supported as their application for asylum has been refused, they are no longer housed and fed and have effectively become feral with one aim - to get out of Italy.

France, Switzerland and Austria have very effective border police and turn back hundreds every day; an eastward movement is eventually inevitable.

Also, "the direction they mostly came from" is Africa, via Libya, and their origins stretch through the whole swathe of the African continent - they are not the product of conflict zones (unless from Sudan and where Boko Haram is active). And still they come, scooped out of sea every day by rescue ships and dumped on Italy, many by non-Italians whose countries refuse to accept any of them themselves - or if so, merely a token.


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[alant]

The essence of it all! If I should qualify and obtain the Norwegian licence D5LA (Valid for privately owned "ships" up to 24 meters), it will be valid for Norwegian registered boats only, but worldvide. Hence likewise, if a boat is British, one can then operate it without a licence, worldwide, because it's considered under British law.
-I can therefore operate a British 60 footer IN Norway without a license, but not a Norwegian boat...

I skippered both a British flagged survey vessel & a tugboat, owned & operated by Danish companies in Denmark/Norway, who then required a Brit 'qualified' person. They accepted my YM ticket (although preferred a DS because it included the word skipper, so sounded non recreational compared to 'yachtmaster'). Scrutinised at length by Danish equivalent of MCA & also by Norwegian maritime 'police', to ensure compliance. The Danish companies said British MCA regs were less onerous than using a Danish flag.

 

[[163233]]

I skippered both a British flagged survey vessel & a tugboat, owned & operated by Danish companies in Denmark/Norway, who then required a Brit 'qualified' person. They accepted my YM ticket (although preferred a DS because it included the word skipper, so sounded non recreational compared to 'yachtmaster'). Scrutinised at length by Danish equivalent of MCA & also by Norwegian maritime 'police', to ensure compliance. The Danish companies said British MCA regs were less onerous than using a Danish flag.

What is required of Danes beyond a YM?

 

[alant]

What is required of Danes beyond a YM?

Apart from my other Boatmaster ticket, the ability to rape & pillage presumably.
The only confusion I had was in Norway, because their authorities wouldn't accept that a commercially endorsed YM, wasn't endorsed with my STCW 95 quals, which was not a requirement of our MCA/ RYA at that time. Took a lot of online searching to convince them.

 

[VexedIllologist]

To be exempt you have to be under 24 metres and 80 tonnes.

The regs are complicated for big boats, more here:-
http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/regulations/pleasure-craft/Pages/hub.aspx

This is how the exemption is often misinterpreted (as if both length and Gross Tonnage limits must not be exceeded), that is to change the meaning of the word OR to mean AND.

The exemption applies to those of 'less than 80 GT or under 24 metres in load line length'.

A vessel of more than 24 metres, but less than 80 GT, is exempt.

A vessel of under 24 metres, but over 80 GT is exempt.

 

[VexedIllologist]

Licence only required above 24m load line length.

Exempt if 'less than 80 GT or under 24 metres in load line length'.

Over 24m, but less than 80 GT is exempt. Under 24m, but over 80 GT is exempt.

 

[[163233]]

Apart from my other Boatmaster ticket, the ability to rape & pillage presumably.
The only confusion I had was in Norway, because their authorities wouldn't accept that a commercially endorsed YM, wasn't endorsed with my STCW 95 quals, which was not a requirement of our MCA/ RYA at that time. Took a lot of online searching to convince them.

I think that was the purpose of STCW - to bring qualifications into line internationally, it must be pretty similar these days?

This is how the exemption is often misinterpreted (as if both length and Gross Tonnage limits must not be exceeded), that is to change the meaning of the word OR to mean AND.

Yes, you're quite right I messed up the logic when I re-phrased it as an exemption.

 

[BowWave]

Can we be clear about how load line length is calculated please?

And what is the final word? You need what minimum license for a boat larger than 24m?