Yacht & dinghy race timing app

[sighmoon]

Other clubs are pratting about with live tracking via GPS but can't even get the results on the web or notice board before tea time. No doubt people will want to use the trackers to tell the results system when a boat finishes, this is clearly do-able on a large scale yacht race, not sure it's always going to give the right answer for dinghies. It will do 90% of it but not the 10% which causes stress currently.
I'm sure some people are goingto want to at least check their results are not inconsistent with the tracker data.

GPS is not there yet, it seems.

GPS is theoretically accurate to within 8.8m, 95% of the time. or within 30m 99.79% of the time. (no 100% claims)
https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/

I don't know how it works but the error could possibly be compounded by two boats having errors at either extreme. 60m could cover a lot of boats.

 

[sighmoon]

I think I would struggle to find sufficient volunteers of the right calibre who can type quick enough on their waterproof data entry terminals.
The problem with multiplexing time recording operatives is that you'd need some means of assigning each finisher to a particular data entry person.

Really? Everyone seems to be able to type on their waterproof data entry terminals (i.e. smart phones) pretty fast round here. If you want faster, find a teenager. Besides, you only need to click one button at finish time.

On multiplexing, if two people record the same boat within 5 minutes it is highlighted (for deletion if you like) so erring on the side of recording a boat too many times would do no harm. Missing a boat is conceivable in any system if they are in the melee and their sail is hidden from everybody recording. However, the work flow of the app is that you enter the sail numbers of boats as they approach the line, and then lick the button as they finish. If a boat has slipped through unnoticed it would be more apparent than a paper system.

 

[lw395]

We have a proven system which works and is robust and versatile.
We have a valuable reputation for delivering the service people want.
We would probably consider changing what we do only if we had problems with the current solution, or due to pressure from sailors who experienced a better service from other operators.

You need to be talking to people who have a problem doing the job with 'old tech'.

It would be interesting to hear the views of those who go to RO conferences and the like.
Above club level I just drive the boat and pull the flags etc, I'm not an NRO or anything.
But I've worked with some decent teams.

 

[Muddy32]

We have a proven system which works and is robust and versatile.
We have a valuable reputation for delivering the service people want.
We would probably consider changing what we do only if we had problems with the current solution, or due to pressure from sailors who experienced a better service from other operators.

You need to be talking to people who have a problem doing the job with 'old tech'.

It would be interesting to hear the views of those who go to RO conferences and the like.
Above club level I just drive the boat and pull the flags etc, I'm not an NRO or anything.
But I've worked with some decent teams.

I have a team that has become a social group [ladies and a few men who do not want to race]. They do an excellent job together and we we have run racing for 300+ dinghies for Nationals with 150 boats coming in over 20 mins and also yachts needing timing for handicap. Two teams writing separately and maybe another team at the finish pin. Over 35 years I have had few complaints, easily fixed. The sheets [on waterproof paper] are photographed and sent to the results team ashore often available on the competitors when they come ashore.

OK - an experienced team, but a simpler system employed for club racing with 20-30 boats is also used weekly by competitors in turn as RO over the year.

Why change? KISS

One man and his dog on a small lake, different matter and harder in my opinion than most 'high events'. My dog can bark on command so if the hooter doesn't hoot.......................

Don't forget the social side of having a team.

KISS KISS

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Really? Everyone seems to be able to type on their waterproof data entry terminals (i.e. smart phones) pretty fast round here. If you want faster, find a teenager. Besides, you only need to click one button at finish time.

On multiplexing, if two people record the same boat within 5 minutes it is highlighted (for deletion if you like) so erring on the side of recording a boat too many times would do no harm. Missing a boat is conceivable in any system if they are in the melee and their sail is hidden from everybody recording. However, the work flow of the app is that you enter the sail numbers of boats as they approach the line, and then lick the button as they finish. If a boat has slipped through unnoticed it would be more apparent than a paper system.

How about boats approaching the line when you can't see their numbers? Various ways that can happen, but how about a bunch of RS21s coming at a downwind finish? No sail numbers on their asymmetrics - all of which are the same colours. I'm not disputing that there isn't a tech answer, but it won't include a keyboard.

(You could say that they should have had numbers, but are you going to send the whole fleet home, or work with what you've got?).

 

[Nick Costen]

That's an interesting point. On a paper-based system, how do you record the data in that situation?

I agree that maybe vocally describing the scene (either to a scribe or some device) might be a better data-entry solution. But perhaps we need to differentiate between the data and entry means.

Nick

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

That's an interesting point. On a paper-based system, how do you record the data in that situation?

I agree that maybe vocally describing the scene (either to a scribe or some device) might be a better data-entry solution. But perhaps we need to differentiate between the data and entry means.

Nick

Describe the situation to the recorders (two people and a voice memo) 'three boats coming to the line now... now......now' (announced at the same time as the hooter in case of finger trouble), which gets the times written down, then as the boats pass us we can see the numbers and it was fairly easy for three of us to recall which order they were in - according to nearest/farthest. I'd have to listen to the recording, but I vaguely recall adding anything useful like 'red jacket' of if I recognised the crew then some suitable comment. This was the RS21 Nationals and there were only 11 boats and as far as I remember three was the biggest finishing cluster. Four would have been OK, possibly five, but confidence would drop off fairly quickly after that.

Out of interest, what's the biggest cluster of finishers that anyone here can remember? Maybe four in a few seconds would be mine, but I can see that a larger group at even three second spacings could turn from order to ordure fairly quickly.

Edit. For the voice recorder I read it the time just before the group arrived, so that it would be possible to get fairly good corroboration from it.

 

[lw395]

That's an interesting point. On a paper-based system, how do you record the data in that situation?

I agree that maybe vocally describing the scene (either to a scribe or some device) might be a better data-entry solution. But perhaps we need to differentiate between the data and entry means.

Nick

Paper based system, you can note anything you like. On the line, you can note that the crew all in grey beat the crew in red.
Where classes are prone to looking like clones, organisers generally insist on bow numbers.

 

[Muddy32]

Paper based system, you can note anything you like. On the line, you can note that the crew all in grey beat the crew in red.
Where classes are prone to looking like clones, organisers generally insist on bow numbers.

Another way in single fleets with difficult or no sail numbers on kites etc, is to arrange the finishing line to make the approach and crossing of the line on a point of sail that will enable the sail number to be read. A fine reach is good. It also rewards good sail handling skills, often with entertaining results. Do not make it too long a leg though as they then bunch up to windward.

 

[lw395]

Another way in single fleets with difficult or no sail numbers on kites etc, is to arrange the finishing line to make the approach and crossing of the line on a point of sail that will enable the sail number to be read. A fine reach is good. It also rewards good sail handling skills, often with entertaining results. Do not make it too long a leg though as they then bunch up to windward.

Where the finish is a short reach from the leeward mark to the line, you may get some very negative feedback frrom competitors if they can't fly the kite to the line.
I think it's important for the course and finish line to be consistent with the SIs and the intentions of the class.
Setting a finish where only the fatties could carry the kite would be seen as poor practice in some circles.

We aim to provide a quality service to the competitors, who are after all, the paying customers.

 

[Muddy32]

Where the finish is a short reach from the leeward mark to the line, you may get some very negative feedback frrom competitors if they can't fly the kite to the line.
I think it's important for the course and finish line to be consistent with the SIs and the intentions of the class.
Setting a finish where only the fatties could carry the kite would be seen as poor practice in some circles.

We aim to provide a quality service to the competitors, who are after all, the paying customers.

Quite agree about keeping our clients happy but if all the boats have to 2 sail reach to the finish, the fatties aren't favoured. 30 odd years of running the similar set up, I have had few complaints if any, and a lot better that trying to finish on a beat at the top. unless that is the way home!

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Another way in single fleets with difficult or no sail numbers on kites etc, is to arrange the finishing line to make the approach and crossing of the line on a point of sail that will enable the sail number to be read. A fine reach is good. It also rewards good sail handling skills, often with entertaining results. Do not make it too long a leg though as they then bunch up to windward.

Sure, we'd probably have done some re-organising of the course if it had been a larger class, but the reason I brought it up was to highlight the versatility of pencil and paper.

 

[sighmoon]

How about boats approaching the line when you can't see their numbers? Various ways that can happen, but how about a bunch of RS21s coming at a downwind finish? No sail numbers on their asymmetrics - all of which are the same colours. I'm not disputing that there isn't a tech answer, but it won't include a keyboard.

(You could say that they should have had numbers, but are you going to send the whole fleet home, or work with what you've got?).

Understood. Thanks very much for that.

I have added a timed dictaphone feature so when a multitude of boats with hidden sail numbers are approaching, you can say what you like as they cross the line (i.e. Blue Spinnaker, second RS21, helmsman with the red hat) and it will record the time of each word and something as close to the utterance as technology allows (ie.. sail number "925" will almost certainly be listed as "9 to 5", 'Albert Hall' for 'Albacore', etc etc) . The times can then be associated with actual boats afterwards.

Potential?

It's live on OOD2 - Sailing dinghy and yacht race timing and scoring system but it will only work on Chrome and could do with more testing / polish.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Understood. Thanks very much for that.

I have added a timed dictaphone feature so when a multitude of boats with hidden sail numbers are approaching, you can say what you like as they cross the line (i.e. Blue Spinnaker, second RS21, helmsman with the red hat) and it will record the time of each word and something as close to the utterance as technology allows (ie.. sail number "925" will almost certainly be listed as "9 to 5", 'Albert Hall' for 'Albacore', etc etc) . The times can then be associated with actual boats afterwards.

Potential?

It's live on OOD2 - Sailing dinghy and yacht race timing and scoring system but it will only work on Chrome and could do with more testing / polish.

I'll get the app and have a go. I was answering as a 'line caller', but will try it as if I'm in the cockpit being a recorder. One of the things I'll be looking for (and forgot to mention) is that mistakes can happen, and you realise that you've just written down the last two boats numbers or times in the wrong order for instance. Dead easy to mark that for later correction on paper. (Any competitors reading should not panic. That's why there are at least two recorders...).

 

[sighmoon]

One of the things I'll be looking for (and forgot to mention) is that mistakes can happen, and you realise that you've just written down the last two boats numbers or times in the wrong order for instance. Dead easy to mark that for later correction on paper. (Any competitors reading should not panic. That's why there are at least two recorders...).

You can easily reassign a time to another boat.

 

[Birdseye]

we make them radio in as they approach the line which at low tide can be qute extended. They call in giving their identity and that of the boat they are following or in front of. this has to happen anyway so the od can make sure that all his ducks have safely returned to the nest

as for spinnaker blanking, the OD organises a course so that this cant happen, though with yachts its a requirement that the sails carry an identity