Would it be worth keeping a boat in the Ionian...

[Nerissa]

if you were only going to use it 8 weeks in the year?

Background is this - our family went on a flotilla holiday to the Ionian five years ago and have been back every summer since, trying out different routes and loving it more every time. We since have done some courses and milebuilders in the UK too, but we really like the Med. I'm a teacher and partner is self-employed so feasibly in a year or two we would be in a position to spend 6 weeks in the summer plus May and October half-terms sailing if we could afford it. I've noticed that there are a lot of excharter boats for sale and having our own boat would give us a lot more flexibility. Our ultimate retirement plan is to keep a winter base in the UK and spend six months living aboard - I am slowly accumulating the complete works of Jimmy Cornell and planning voyages! The question is, given that as a family we are currently spending about £7-8k a year on our sailing holidays would it make sense to buy an ex-charter boat - Neilson currently have Moody 31's up for sale for around £15k - or would the running costs exceed a sensible amount - ie more than the cost of our annual sailing budget and what would we need to factor in apart from the obvious of maintainance, summer moorings, winter lay-up etc? Would be very grateful for any thoughts anyone might have on this.

 

[jordanbasset]

if you were only going to use it 8 weeks in the year?

Background is this - our family went on a flotilla holiday to the Ionian five years ago and have been back every summer since, trying out different routes and loving it more every time. We since have done some courses and milebuilders in the UK too, but we really like the Med. I'm a teacher and partner is self-employed so feasibly in a year or two we would be in a position to spend 6 weeks in the summer plus May and October half-terms sailing if we could afford it. I've noticed that there are a lot of excharter boats for sale and having our own boat would give us a lot more flexibility. Our ultimate retirement plan is to keep a winter base in the UK and spend six months living aboard - I am slowly accumulating the complete works of Jimmy Cornell and planning voyages! The question is, given that as a family we are currently spending about £7-8k a year on our sailing holidays would it make sense to buy an ex-charter boat - Neilson currently have Moody 31's up for sale for around £15k - or would the running costs exceed a sensible amount - ie more than the cost of our annual sailing budget and what would we need to factor in apart from the obvious of maintainance, summer moorings, winter lay-up etc? Would be very grateful for any thoughts anyone might have on this.

Have a look at part ownership. I was aware of some yacht owners who chose not to sail during the peak summer period. You may be able to find a co-owner who is prepared for you to have those weeks. This would make it economically feasible

 

[Borden]

Well there's a question!

We started chartering in the Ionian in the mid '80s and like you we loved it returning most years until 1992. We finally made it to the Ionian in our own boat in 2011 having left the UK in 2006, although we've now moved on to Turkey.

First costs, you need to factor in air travel costs for two each time you go out. If you fly in to Preveza then your season is limited to April - mid October at a cost of £300 to £400 per person each time. One alternative is Easyjet to Corfu then make your way to Preveza by ferry & road, that could be around £150 per person for the return flight then about £80 for one way car hire and ferry.They start flying from the Uk to Corfu at the end of March. Another route is fly to Athens then coach to Preveza at around the same cost as the Corfu trip. Might be best to avoid Athens at the mo. We were caught up in a national strike a couple of years ago and lost a day in Athens plus 160 Euro for unexpected hotel & transport from the airport to hotel by the receptionist's brother! The troubles in Athens tend not to be reflected in the islands in our experience.

Afloat in a marina or the cheaper option of laying up ashore when you're not there. Ashore means less cause for worry. I'd recommend Aktio Marine in Preveza. Marina costs you can research and you'll get plenty of recommendations and warnings here. We used Aktio Marine for winter storage ashore. At first glance it may appear a little basic compared with the big marinas but we have nothing but praise for Yannis and his team there. Eat at Pannos' taverna 5 mins walk away great value and great food. Marina costs will be about 1500 euro, that's my guess but check it with Aktio direct. http://www.aktio-marine.gr/EN/mainindex.htm
Spares & fuel depend on the boat and you but think of a number and double it so as not to be surprised.
In Greece you'll need a Greek cruising log, get it from the tax office for 30 eurs & get it stamped regularly, this can be free or will cost you port dues, it depends where you are.

The advantage of having your own boat is that you go where you please when you please and if you want to stay somewhere for a week you can.

The advantage of chartering is that it's all ready for you to step aboard and go. Paperwork, fuel, maintenance, advice, all there done and ready for you to just turn the key and go and the air fare is included.

Having your own boat will probably mean spending the first night you arrive in the boat which could well be ashore and then launching the next day. You'll then probably find that a couple of things leak or are in need of fixing so you spend another day and night afloat in the marina whilst you or others fix the boat. Then you're ready to go. At the other end of your holiday you do the reverse and spend at least the last two days of your break preparing to be lifted out, getting lifted out, then cleaning and stowing sails & gear in preparation for leaving the boat until next time. You'll probably need to find someone local to fix, fit or supply something whilst you're not there and maybe keep an eye on your boat as well.

So why don't we charter it seems to be the much more sensible option? True it does, but I hate being told what to do and there is nothing more satisfying than mooring up to the town quay in your own boat. So I'm not sensible! Who cares?

Finally in your own boat, when you get bored with the Ionian you can go somewhere else.

Colin
Moody 47 Solent Venture.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Well, that is just exactly what we did for the first ten years. Now we do around 17 weeks. Nice to arrive at the marina, step aboard and change into Med rig with the wardrobe you keep on board and take a glass of the whisky or G&T that you retain there too.

Might not be economic use but the alternative of having to clean out every bit of personal gear whenever you pass on the boat to a co-owner, noticing yet another chip out of the gelcoat at your next visit and having one's cruising ground and schedule dictated by others is not appealing.

Seems that I'm agreeing with Colin above except that I would say "Paperwork? WHAT Paperwork?" The DEKPA tends to be optional. I havn't filled a whole page in mine yet and some I know just havn't bothered with one. If you anchor rather than enter port, chances are you'll never get asked for one - they seem to have run out of them in most PP offices anyway!

 

[daveyw]

35 footer looked after by a local "guardian" costs about £4000/year for routine maintenance/insurance/haul out/winter work etc. Factor in your flights which are getting dear at over £400 using charter flights... We worked out it is now cheaper to easy jet to Athens and then hire a car for 2 weeks than fly to Preveza direct especially as we have to taxi to Lefkas at E35+ each way

 

[mikecontessa26]

Wardrobe I keep on-board... very little in the Med

For what it's worth i've been thinking of selling my boat recently and maybe chartering etc. Decided against it for now at least, i love the idea I know where everything is on the boat and have it just how i want it. Just love the idea of having that escape option there if life gets too dull

 

[chrisgee]

I would consider the share option , for under £15,000 you could buy a fifth or maybe a quarter share in a 34 / 36 footer and have 5-6 weeks year, maybe more. Your running costs are shared also and when you want to buy your own boat you will find it easier to sell a share than a whole boat.
There are some good boats around ( and some dogs). Look at "Yacht Fractions" to get some ideas.

 

[Nerissa]

I've been looking up flights, had no idea how expensive they were as the cost has always been hidden in the flotilla package price - minimum of £2000 for a family of five Would make the coming out three times a year thing very expensive. May have to sell the kids. Oh well, only seven years until the youngest turns 18.

 

[nimbusgb]

It's what I do with our 38' Benne. Keep at Preveza, Aktio, have the advantage of not being tied to school holidays much any more. Drive down with a van at season start and back at season end with a couple of flights per year in between. With a bit of planning can get return flights down to £150 via Corfu or £200 via Athens.

In high season a 31' boat is going to cost around £1k a week and 5 or more ( kids may bring friends ) is going to get crowded. Ignore the cost of flights because that is the same regardless.

 

[Zen Zero]

We keep our 28 footer at Plataria (it's the next bay south from Igoumenitsa, where we arrive by ferry from Bari). We moved her there from the Tyrrhenian last summer because we could not afford to keep her in an Italian yard any more and couldn't bear to sell her.

I couldn't really say how it's working out yet because I had to leave her there 3 days after we arrived, but my co-owner enjoyed an additional 3 weeks with wife, daughter and son-in-law. Before leaving her to be lifted out and stored at Plataria. The price of €1200 includes storage, lift out and lift in.

We'll be seeing her again in June, by which time I hope my co-owner will have taken care of anti-fouling, replacing 2 skin-fittings, and relaunching.

My mum's coming with us in June. We looked at ways of flying her straight to Corfu, but from Glasgow there are only 3 flights a week by Ryanair, Thompson and Thomas Cook and none of them at the weekend. So she's flying to Rome and joining us for the drive and overnight ferry.

I'm really looking forward to enjoying the Ionian but the time available isn't turning out to be as much as I had hoped.

I also looked at flying to Thessaloniki and renting a car there. It's quite a bit closer than Athens.

 

[Palarran]

Nerissa,
Are you only paying 7-8k per year for 8 weeks of charter plus flights? That would be cheap for sure.

We have only just made it to the Med last year but intend to do what you are planning for the next two (8 weeks per year). The cost has been much less than I had anticipated. I came from the Caribbean and insurance was 3 times more per year due to hurricane coverage. Because of my haul-out, my marina costs have dropped in half also. And finally, the maintenance has decreased by half. So, while it is still a big number for us to cruise the Med, in comparison to chartering for the same period it is around 75% less.

I don't like the idea of sharing a boat. It will almost always end in trouble.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I can only speak from the experience of buying an ex-charter boat in Croatia in 2011 but the parallels will be the same.

Cost: If you make this decision with your head then you will not buy your own boat. Your own boat will be more expensive to run and older and less reliable than a charter boat - I've kept expenditure records, and we're now easily averaging more than double what we used to spend on chartering - well she needs to be looked after - so just accept it and be realistic about the finances. A charter boat is only for sale for one reason, it is no longer economically viable for the charter company to run so expect a fair amount of upgrades and cosmetic repairs. We can drive to McKelvie in 6-7 hours - if we had to fly we couldn't have afforded her.

But, the benefits: .... She will be your own boat, and nothing beats cruising on your own boat, and flying a red ensign in a foreign land.

It's like home in an exotic location instead of a short term holiday, you get to know her vices, and learn how to handle her. She's always there for you, so you can sneak in a long weekend every now and then too.

When you arrive, there's no hanging around waiting for the boat to be cleaned up from the last lot or working out how yet another chart plotter works, or which rope does what at the start of every holiday.

You will also have all the things that are usually missing from charter boats, good sized dinghy and powerful outboard, multiple anchor configrations, extra ropes, electronics set up just as you want them, all the right pots, pans, glasses and utensils, great coffee maker, fishing rods, sail-boards, decent foul weather and safety gear, leccy cables with extensions that can reach a shore power socket half a mile away, same goes for water hoses, drinks locker stocked with your favourite tipple, the list is endless - and it all stays on board, ready for your arrival.

I'm glad I did it, and I'm also grateful I can afford it. It's turned out much more expensive than my initial naive and optimistic calculations indicated but we somehow found the additional money and I wouldn't change anything - just do your research and costings as objectively as you can - then double them

Good luck, and here's a taste of what to look forward to .....

 

[Nerissa]

Nerissa,
Are you only paying 7-8k per year for 8 weeks of charter plus flights? That would be cheap for sure.

Palarran, £7-8k, is what I reckon we spend on sailing per year at the moment - this covers a two week family flotilla holiday in August plus a week in the UK for me on my own doing a course or a mile builder to improve my skills and summer dinghy classes for the youngest two kids. I was trying to work out if we could get more sailing for that money by having our own boat. The kids love flotilla holidays but the oldest is now thinking herself almost too old to holiday with the family so I guess I am thinking ahead to the next phase. I've had a look at shared ownership, but it is unlikely to work for us as we would want the whole six-week school summer break and because of my employment would never be able to take weeks out of school holiday time. Maybe it is a bit of a pipe dream at the moment. Our plan is to spend six months a year seriously cruising when we retire, but that's a while off yet and I don't want to postpone all the fun in my life until retirement hits. I might not get that far.

Baggywrinkle - you say you are spending more than double what you spent on chartering - is that for the same amount of time on board? I love everything you are saying about the joy of having your own boat, but I think that is my heart talking louder than my head.

 

[affinite]

Unless you are a liveaboard, it really doesnt make financial sense to own your own boat but the pleasure of having your "own" mobile holiday retreat is immense and in my opinion, trumps the financial downside. On your own boat you can do as you please, when you please and with your own "stuff" already on board.

Like many owners I also do my own servicing and basic maintenance so must be prepared to give up a few days a year to maintenance and not cruising. To be honest I love tinkering on the boat, doing small projects in the sunshine but its not for everyone so you do need to consider that because if you dont do your own maintenance the expense of keeping a boat in Greece can be large as you will have to pay someone to do it for you.

Like you we started Sailing on an Ionian flotila having moved on from owning a powerboat in the UK. After one flot and one bareboat charter we were hooked. We sold our powerboat and bought a 34' sailing boat in UK. We then spent a couple of years learning to sail it but eventually got fed up with UK weather & traffic jams getting to the coast so eventualy sailed her down to Greece (Ionian) in a 5 week sprint.

Best thing we ever did, we loved having our own boat in the Ionian and were based there for 5 years.
We now find ourself based in the Dodecanese & Turkey where we bought our current boat (44' Moody) having sailed the 34 footer back to Preveza to sell her.
I wouldnt change a thing except that I'd really like to experience Caribean sailing. Trouble is I feel reluctant to spend money on a charter when I have a lovely comfortable boat available at no additional cost to me in Greece.

Go for it

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Baggywrinkle - you say you are spending more than double what you spent on chartering - is that for the same amount of time on board? I love everything you are saying about the joy of having your own boat, but I think that is my heart talking louder than my head.

Looking back I think on balance we managed 6 weeks sailing, 3 long weekends and 1 week was spent on maintenance. Normally we did 3 weeks charter @ €1-1.5k per week. This year SWMBO wants to do Easter in the UK so I'm paying for the maintenance so I don't lose holiday time.

McKelvie is 11.5m. The marina was €4.5k, lift out, travel, maintenance (engine, anti-foul, anodes, repairs) saw off another €1-1.5K easily. Insurance, cruising permit, soujourn tax, light duties, registration €1K - Then there's all the upgrades, this is where you need discipline. I easily spent €8K on new dinghy, 6ps outboard, new lifejackets, tethers, jackstays, plotter, AIS VHF, oilies x 2, boots x 2, shore-power, leads, leaky taps, shower sump pump, hose, fridge thermostat, radar reflector, nav lights, anchors chain and warp, etc, etc, .... and I still have a very long list. All the small things really add up.

Thinking about it, the first few years are probably the worst until you get the boat just as you want it. Then it should settle down a bit. I bought stuff that wasn't safety related off flea-bay, that saved a packet but you need patience. In all I probably could have got by with the charter inventory alone but it was short on safety equipment and comfort - plus no dinghy or outboard.

A return trip to the boat costs €175 in fuel and tolls, and takes 6-7 hours.

If I were you I'd get an excel spreadsheet going and spend a few evenings modelling various scenarios. Then cut your cloth accordingly. Nothing spoils boat ownership like being skint, better a more modest boat and money in the bank than a beautiful boat you can't afford to run. The excel exercise diverted me from a post 2000 12-13m boat to a 1999 11.5m which was 10k cheaper - the 10k then went anyway - I'm so glad I didn't stretch the purchase budget.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

If you're thinking of buying ex-charter then go out and have a look at all the boats on offer. Go home and do some rudimentary sums for the boat you like. Then offer to charter the boat for a week if they will deduct the charter cost from the purchase price. You get a weeks sailing and the chance to go through the boat with a fine toothed comb, listing everything that needs attention to help you cost it all out. It worked really well for us.

 

[Palarran]

Nerissa,
My son is 19 and can't wait for our summer adventure. He has a friend join him for a few weeks and they usually hit the clubs every other night. When he is alone, he makes friends quickly. My daughter is 16 and more introverted. She just enjoys touring the areas right now. I look at our boat as a way to keep us together more in the future.

I don't know what your financial situation is. We have been fortunate to be able to afford a frequent travel lifestyle. In my opinion, if you can afford it, you will not regret it.

 

[Donheist]

Best and dearest thing I've done

Owning a boat is quite different. I bought ours last year knowing nothing about buying, owning and fixing. Have a 1989 oceanis 390. Costs (gbp) are 4k mooring in gouvia marina, about a grand for unavoidable maintenance - lift out, anodes, engine consumables etc. I estimate other maintenance working out same again but lumpier - rigging, batteries, sails etc, as they need doing. This is based on doing non-specialist jobs myself where I can. Takes longer but learning is part of the fun. Tend to get someone to help me do each job the first time then I know how to do it right.

Insurance 500 quid.

Then there are bound to be costs when you first get it - getting it just the way you want it...

It has caused worries, but build a network of handy folk and it helps - I have found the Ionian to be the most welcoming place on earth.

But best bit is the feeling is totally different. Like being a resident rather than a tourist. Walking along the dock seeing people working on their boats is great. Being able to leave gear means you can fly with just carry on gear. Books, waypoints, life jackets that fit, all waiting for you. Don't have to go shopping for salt, pepper, earl grey tea as soon as you arrive. can catch convenient or cheap flights, holiday starts on arrival. Fitting tv, BBQ, other comforts which won't stand up to charter crews means a comfier boat. You'll spend less on eating out I expect as your boat becomes a more personal space you enjoy a g and t onboard that much more. I'm fitting an optic this season.

Best is that you get to know the boat - how she manoeuvres, performs, in all conditions. You can fix things that go wrong without having to call the man. Makes you a better sailor IMHO . I just think it extends the feeling of responsibility of being a skipper which I enjoy.

It probably barely breaks even on a cost basis for less than 6 or 8 weeks. There's also a week of maintenncce to factor in. But the experience is not like for like. E baying bits and bobs, planning and researching jobs extends your pleasure all year. And being an owner and meeting the chandlers, sailmakers etc deepens the relationship with the community you're visiting.

Be realistic about the money but if you can afford it, do it.

 

[Palarran]

Great post Don Heist

 

[Nerissa]

I'm glad I started this thread. I've learned so much. Realistically, I think we are two-three years away from doing this but there is a lot to think about while I wait. I am the sort of person who reads Practical Boat Owner and feels totally daunted by some of the boat jobs that other owners take for granted they can do themselves, but I reckon I could learn given time and as Donheist says, by getting someone to show me the first time. I am really inspired by everything people have posted on here about the difference between chartering and having your own boat and now I have a bit of a plan forming about how to get there!