Women and sailing

[SeaUrchin9]

Why don't women like sailing?
Or, how can we encourage more women to crew, skipper, and own sailing boats?
Is there any need to do this?

I'm a woman and I love sailing! I have my day skipper and my own boat (no not with someone else - on my own ta very much).

I think the techie thing isn't every woman's cup of tea - nor is the raging weather and getting your nails messed up. I think i'm a bit odd though and more blokey than most - or rather I have a bloke's sense of 'I can do everything' - which is unusually for girls. Most girls put themselves down and think they can;t - but i think sailing is quite tough and a lot of women prefer not to subject themselves to it.

Each to their own.

PS I love handbags and probably have too many shoes...in case you were wondering...

PPS I probably ought to add i am more techie than most - being a computer nerd. And also a bit of a risk taker, it would appear. Not sure this is totally usual but I am what I am.

 

[Spirit of Glenans]

My wife and I own a 30' boat between us. When sailing it we take turns at being in charge. She's not so good at the physical stuff these days, for health reasons, but I consider her a better sailor than me.
We only took up sailing fifteen years ago, when we were both around 50, and became members of Glenans Irish Sailing Club, (now called Glenua Sailing Centre), an offshoot of Les Glenans, the famous French sail-training organisation. At least 50% of the membership of these bodies is female, and the gender breakdown of the volunteer instructors would be similar. The most educational/instructive cruising courses I took were instructed by women. Likewise the Keelboat courses
A fact of life in the club is that if one remains a member long enough, the likelihood is that one decides to take the Instructor Course. I became a Keelboat Instructor in 2009 and my wife did so in 2010. We have since then volunteered to instruct for at least two weeks every year and usually do so on the same two weeks. It is inevitably my wife who is the lead instructor of the course, whichever level she is instructing on, her organisational and leadership skills being legendary.
I'm lucky, I guess, to be married to someone who is as interested in sailing as I am.
If you want to find out more about Glenua, or perhaps book on for a course, in a magnificent location, have a look at the website; www.glenua.com

 

[Babylon]

Interesting to note that several men have expressed interest in this topic and in hearing from women about it, but they don't seem to have much to contribute when the women do turn up..........

Because they've learnt since the dawn of time to go hunt a wooly mammoth or bugger off down the pub rather than engage in a futile conversation to establish that men are different - but not inferior - to women.

On one occasion, the skipper was being bugged by a rather scruffy little bloke during the initial sail drill. A former ward sister, she drew herself up to her full height and addressed him this in her finest ward sister tones:

"Well, I must say, you are a fine figure of a man! Have you opened your bowels today?"

No more lip from that direction. That's they way to treat 'em! :encouragement:

If a man posted such an anecdote about denigrating any woman, AND encouraged other men to carp, there'd be hell to pay from the sisters. But, because feminists (i.e. not all women, just ardent feminists) are convinced that they are the victims of 160,000 years of evolution plus of a conspiracy of persecution by mankind, such insidious little stories can be told with an aura of immunity.

I'm afraid I don't agree. There isn't nearly as much overt sexism as there used to be, although it is not quite dead yet. But a more subtle form of sexism in the form of pressures to maintain the assumptions and stereotypes that tend to keep women in the subordinate position in the sailing world are still there and part of the usual experience of many women in the sailing world. Women experience them. Men do not.

I thought women could think and decide for themselves? Are you really suggesting that they're so feeble-minded as to define themselves by, for example, magazine advertising? Or is the truth simply that a significant proportion - probably the strong majority - are entirely happy with being who they are, sailing as they do, and living their lives without having to bend to the theoretical imperatives of contemporary - or old-fashioned - feminism?

Sweeping generalisations about women, or men, are meaningless.

Well, you said it!

Some people are weak whilst others are strong. Some are bossy, others are meek. Some are brave, others not, some imaginative, some not. Some like servicing diesel engines, others don't. Etc.

 

[Serin]

If a man posted such an anecdote about denigrating any woman, AND encouraged other men to carp, there'd be hell to pay from the sisters. But, because feminists (i.e. not all women, just ardent feminists) are convinced that they are the victims of 160,000 years of evolution plus of a conspiracy of persecution by mankind, such insidious little stories can be told with an aura of immunity.

Oh dear. So a woman in authority, well used to having it questioned and ridiculed by men who are uncomfortable with that authority, is not allowed to put a stop to it and her riposte cannot be described? And yet, on these forums, anecdotes aimed at women and their foibles are repeated over and over again without a peep from women posters?

I thought women could think and decide for themselves? Are you really suggesting that they're so feeble-minded as to define themselves by, for example, magazine advertising? Or is the truth simply that a significant proportion - probably the strong majority - are entirely happy with being who they are, sailing as they do, and living their lives without having to bend to the theoretical imperatives of contemporary - or old-fashioned - feminism?

.[/QUOTE]

Magazine advertising is neither here nor there. What does still pervade many women's experience are the attitudes that also pervade these forums, all too often based on the assumption that they are the natural subordinates in this world, that they don't like sailing, that the way to lure them is to make sure the domestic arrangements are to their taste The trouble is that you will never hear what what women say about these things in private and you won't hear it when it is said in public. There are very few men in my experience who will not ultimately react as you have done when these issues come up. Which is probably why they don't come up very often. As another poster mentioned above - if you really want to know, read or listen to what women write or say. But since the reaction is almost invariably one of angry denial, why would we bother?

There are some notable exceptions. I'm lucky enough to have been married to one and know several others. But they are rare in my experience.

 

[Babylon]

Your suggestion of "angry denial" is just a deflection from reality (reminiscent of my ex-wife's superb skills at inverting and reversing blame). Denial simply isn't true in my own case, in the clear majority of modern men - or in the very women who you'd like to think are unwitting victims of their own gender.

I've traversed in my personal, educational and working lifes many different cultures and organisations - from the City of London to down-at-heal care-in-the-community mental health service providers, from metropolitan cultural politics to farming communities, the religiously orthodox to drug-taking pagans, and from manufacturing to the crafts.

I've had friendships with more women than most blokes tend to - from BBC producers to diamond traders, ex-prostitutes (not transactionally) to PR flakies, dog-rescuers to hypnotherapists - and my friendships with sailing men and sailing women are now long and wide enough to give me a reliable perspective of this particular subset. No down-trodden or submissive women here - just a load of people who love sailing and socialising. Police officers, pilots, nurses, doctors, engineers, labourers, parents, planning officers, artists, traffic-wardens, teachers, accountants - the lot!

The bottom line is that the world is now understood as a diverse and complex place, where overarching single-issue obsessions no longer seduce anyone except the credulous and some of the young.

You say that you had a husband and a few male friends who humoured your particular view of the rest of man-kind. I'm happy for them and for you, but no more patronising "Oh dears" please.

 

[PabloPicasso]

Lots of interesting comment so far. What I was getting at really was how to encourage more women to sail. It does seem to be more a male pastime from what I've seen. But not everywhere apparently. Clearly some feel sailing is more or less equitable, but with the usual spread of characters you might find anywhere, some supportive, some less so. Lots of couples cruising to.

So should sailors in general be doing more to encourage women? Or do we need to encourage all people? What about ethnic minority groups?

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I have been told that's a "physiological" fact that women feel the cold more than men. As I've got older I find that I'm becoming more and more of a fair-weather sailor because I feel the cold more so I can sympathise if that is the case

The gender stereotyping thing is undoubtedly true in the older generation (most women my age that are in long term relationships are wary of appearing better at "manly" things than their partner for example) but not sure about the under 30's - it may be so. The organisation I work for has moved heaven and earth to employ more women in the IT role and flirted with the boundaries of positive discrimination to put it mildly (they've actually introduced equivalent programmes for men to avoid that problem) but it's still a struggle. A few of the local universities tell us they are seeing just 5-10% take-up from women for IT-related courses, possibly because their parents still give dolls to girls - they're trying to fix that though http://www.themarysue.com/barbie-is-a-game-developer-now/

 

[Serin]

The gender stereotyping thing is undoubtedly true in the older generation (most women my age that are in long term relationships are wary of appearing better at "manly" things than their partner for example) but not sure about the under 30's - it may be so. The organisation I work for has moved heaven and earth to employ more women in the IT role and flirted with the boundaries of positive discrimination to put it mildly (they've actually introduced equivalent programmes for men to avoid that problem) but it's still a struggle. A few of the local universities tell us they are seeing just 5-10% take-up from women for IT-related courses, possibly because their parents still give dolls to girls - they're trying to fix that though http://www.themarysue.com/barbie-is-a-game-developer-now/

I think you are probably right - the gender thing is fading away, although amongst all age groups sexism is still rife in the workplace, especially in situations where women are perceived to be "invading" male bastions. And I'm afraid groups of young men are still blatant offenders. Current youth culture reinforces this. Good on your company for its attempts to turn things around.

 

[Serin]

Lots of interesting comment so far. What I was getting at really was how to encourage more women to sail. It does seem to be more a male pastime from what I've seen. But not everywhere apparently. Clearly some feel sailing is more or less equitable, but with the usual spread of characters you might find anywhere, some supportive, some less so. Lots of couples cruising to.

So should sailors in general be doing more to encourage women? Or do we need to encourage all people? What about ethnic minority groups?

I would prefer to use the term "welcome". To me the important thing is to make sure people (male, female, trans - whoever they are) who would like to get into sailing are warmly welcomed and supported. I think that's quite a big group. I'm just in the process of helping some neighbours to introduce their little boy, who is on the autism spectrum, to sailing. He loves being on water, but very, very anxious.

Sailing has been such an immeasurable enrichment to my life. For me, its about making sure people who really want to get involved have the same opportunities.

 

[Serin]

Your suggestion of "angry denial" is just a deflection from reality (reminiscent of my ex-wife's superb skills at inverting and reversing blame). Denial simply isn't true in my own case, in the clear majority of modern men - or in the very women who you'd like to think are unwitting victims of their own gender.

I've traversed in my personal, educational and working lifes many different cultures and organisations - from the City of London to down-at-heal care-in-the-community mental health service providers, from metropolitan cultural politics to farming communities, the religiously orthodox to drug-taking pagans, and from manufacturing to the crafts.

I've had friendships with more women than most blokes tend to - from BBC producers to diamond traders, ex-prostitutes (not transactionally) to PR flakies, dog-rescuers to hypnotherapists - and my friendships with sailing men and sailing women are now long and wide enough to give me a reliable perspective of this particular subset. No down-trodden or submissive women here - just a load of people who love sailing and socialising. Police officers, pilots, nurses, doctors, engineers, labourers, parents, planning officers, artists, traffic-wardens, teachers, accountants - the lot!

The bottom line is that the world is now understood as a diverse and complex place, where overarching single-issue obsessions no longer seduce anyone except the credulous and some of the young.

You say that you had a husband and a few male friends who humoured your particular view of the rest of man-kind. I'm happy for them and for you, but no more patronising "Oh dears" please.

Oh dear

I said no such thing. Please don't put words into my mouth.

Love and friendship are the best antidotes to stereotyping. Like you, I have had a long professional experience in many different settings and have many friends of both genders. The issues arise mainly with other types of relationships - both more formal (workplace is a case in point) and more casual day to day dealings - especially in settings dominated or formerly dominated by men. "Patronising" is the least of it. And the man who will openly acknowledge sexism is a rare beast indeed. When it comes to "inverting blame"......... well, perhaps you are not quite as innocent as you think.

Sexism is nothing like what it used to be, but if you think (and I can't believe you do) that it no longer exists, then, just read some of the threads on these forums.

Now, calm down, dear, and I will go and clean behind the fridge.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The fact that the majority (not all - but the majority) of women are under-represented as skippers/boat-owners has very little to do with sexism in the industry or the literature, but everything to do with their own instincts and choices.

Do instincts and choices exist independently of social context, though?

 

[JumbleDuck]

And the man who will openly acknowledge sexism is a rare beast indeed.

I have been surprised at how many posters here whom I had assumed - on no evidence whatsoever - to be men are actually women. Oh dear. I shall have to recalibrate my thinking.

 

[Babylon]

Dearest Serin

Don't worry about the fridge - I've done it already! :encouragement:

There is of course some residual sexism in the culture, just as there is residual racism, anti-semitism, anti-LGBT (note however that it is defined as LG rather than GL!). There always will be some, more prevalent perhaps in the much older generation, but its no longer crippling. Even when I did my first degree in the early 80's there was already gender equality in the student numbers (and it wasn't a soft arts/humanities degree), who did better overall. Many rose as fast or as slowly as the men (depending on their abilities as people) to director/partner level, many at the expense of motherhood.

The great battles started over a hundred years ago and were progressively won. Not just by argument and disobedience, but due to the exigencies of two total wars, then the freeing of women from constant household chores by mass-manufactured technological goods.

So why the rise of Lads Culture? What are Hipster beards really all about? Why the popularity of hijabs amongst young British women in the workplace?

Love

Babs

 

[Babylon]

Do instincts and choices exist independently of social context, though?

Not entirely, but - speaking as someone who has consistently gone against the social and cultural grain - sufficiently so.

Push people through relentless social-engineering beyond their own instinctive and biological sense of self or gender and you will find the limits.

Countless are the number of my women friends who regret that they left it too late to have children.

Happily though, through technology, I have a lesbian cousin (a very high-flying lawyer) whose inseminated eggs were grown in her partners womb to produce lovely twins, a boy and a girl, now about to enter their teenage years. We went to their wedding in France a couple of years ago. My own woman felt it was all too strange - but then she voted Brexit anyway!!

 

[JumbleDuck]

Push people through relentless social-engineering beyond their own instinctive and biological sense of self or gender and you will find the limits.

"Social engineering" is generally a derogatory term used to describe a process intended to produce an outcome which the speaker does not like. So, for example, public schools decry any attempts by universities to discover latent talent in comprehensives as "social engineering" but believe that a system which gets better exam results for those who can pay is ... natural justice? God's plan for the world? Not social engineering, anyway.

On that basis it seems a little one-sided to describe as social engineering attempts to encourage girls and women into areas not traditionally seen as feminine without recognizing the huge social pressures - ie social engineering - discouraging them from those areas in the first place.

In other words, I doubt the notion that there is an instinctive and biological sense of self or gender which is independent of social context.

 

[pmagowan]

I think we must accept that men and women are different. Not just physically but mentally too. Of course if we were to somehow plot the range on a chart we would find that they overlap an awful lot. However, it seems unlikely from a biological point of view that men would evolve to be about 50% physically stronger (on average) to perform a specific function for the benefit of the species without also evolving mental abilities suited to that function.

Now, recognising difference does not equal discrimination. I believe that men and woman are equal in terms of their rights and equality is very important to me. Sexism does exist, that is simply a fact and it can be aimed at men too. Men die 5 years younger than women. There are many jobs were women dominate and men find it difficult for any number of reasons. The idea that equality means we should have 50/50 men and women at every point in society is simply not correct IMO. Women make different choices to men, often better ones IMO, involving lifestyle over career. I am against discrimination, positive or otherwise.

 

[Serin]

I have been surprised at how many posters here whom I had assumed - on no evidence whatsoever - to be men are actually women. Oh dear. I shall have to recalibrate my thinking.

I'm curious. What will that recalibration entail? One of the reasons I have tended to maintain a gender neutral identity on sailing forums is that I don't want to be treated differently because of it. And I'm afraid that's been my experience in the past, with some male posters.

My question is genuine. I would like to know what difference it makes.

 

[pmagowan]

I'm curious. What will that recalibration entail? One of the reasons I have tended to maintain a gender neutral identity on sailing forums is that I don't want to be treated differently because of it. And I'm afraid that's been my experience in the past, with some male posters.

My question is genuine. I would like to know what difference it makes.

Do you not behave differently in an all female group? (Not suggesting this is an all male group just interested)

 

[Serin]

Dearest Serin

Don't worry about the fridge - I've done it already! :encouragement:

Oh, darling, that's so sweet of you.

So why the rise of Lads Culture? What are Hipster beards really all about? Why the popularity of hijabs amongst young British women in the workplace?

I wish I knew.

Love to you too. (and, despite all, I have no doubt that you are a good 'un. I hope that's not patronising, because it isn't meant to be)

Love

Serrie :angel:

 

[Serin]

Do you not behave differently in an all female group? (Not suggesting this is an all male group just interested)

The only time I am in an all female group is when I am with women friends on the boat and, yes - the talk is very different (might be quite revealing to any male fly on the wall) But this is a mixed group composed of people with a common interest - boats, sailing or power boating and the sea. And I would prefer simply to be treated as a fellow sailor.