Women and sailing

[BobPrell]

Why don't women like sailing?
Or, how can we encourage more women to crew, skipper, and own sailing boats?
Is there any need to do this?

Why? The answers will be futile guessing unless women answer. They don't have to if they don't want to, so my prediction is there will be hardly any who do.

To get them to crew and skipper, they would have to learn to like sailing. Owning independently of their man/men?
We could be close to the kernel of the post here. It's about MONEY !!!

There are a lot more women with their own WEALTH ! An unexploited market. That's why there is a need to do it.

Is it desirable? IMHO, it is not, but I know I am like Canute on this.

There is a huge move for the Oz govt to pour money into netball, so that professional leagues can pay women as much money as men get in "their" sports, and "every little girl can aspire to represent her country".

Why should they do that? Because they should be ashamed of themselves if they don't.

I won't go into how it isn't fair that men can't represent their country at netball.

 

[Spirit of Glenans]

I don't see it that way at all. Nothing sexist about it. Women & wives (being the weaker sex) are not generally known for their sense of adventure, & even when sufficiently successful & affluent enough to afford a yacht of their own, don't do it. It's one of the things that I dislike about most women, they're just too insecure to take a chance with anything that smacks of adventure, & sailing is hard work to them.
Without exception, everyone I know who has a sailing yacht, if he dropped dead tomorrow, his wife would have the yacht on the market within a bloody week.!

Fairly certain I can say with all sincerity, what a load of bo11ocks! At 17 I skippered my first yacht, with an all male crew. I continued to do so for some years until I started my nurse training. When qualified I moved to Africa where I went on safari for 5 months, had my face licked by a hyena, our vehicle got stuck in quicksand for 2 days and we thought we would die, got stampeded by a herd of elephants, bungee jumped twice into the Zambezi, was resuscitated after having a white water rafting accident in the same Zambezi, returned, joined the navy, spent time doing arctic training and living in a snow hole in Norway, worked exclusively with the Royal Marines, lived in Gib, went to Iraq twice where we were bombed and I lived in a gas mask and full PPE for 6 months, went to Afghanistan 3 times, was in charge of the UK's largest hospital ship RFA Argos, got medically discharged aged 40 following a spinal injury I received whilst on active deployment, and am currently living in Colombia. And finally I introduced my husband to sailing. Not the other way around. So I really hope your comment was tongue in cheek because I may have failed to mention in my boastathon but I was also a navy marksman for 10 years and have the badges in my old uniform to prove it. And at 44 I reckon I'm only half way through.[/QUOTE]

Hmm.... At first I was really impressed, if not a little in love, but on a second reading I became a little sceptical of such claims from someone who misspells the name of the ship of which she claims to have been in charge

 

[ChattingLil]

I think one of the biggest issues is endemic sexism in the sailing world

Can't help thinking it would be good to have some comments from women. Don't we have any on this forum?

in answer to the second quote - see the first one!

And to the OP: the real question is not "why don't women like sailing"... it should be "why don't some women not like sailing" - and the answer to that is the same as for some men - some people just find it boring, slow, wet, cold, uncomfortable, hard work.

As a female skipper and boat owner, I have taken many women sailing and only one of them didn't like it.

 

[Deviation]

I can assure you wholeheartedly my spelling is not a reflection on either my honesty or integrity. Merely a reflection on my iPads autocorrect spell function.

Fairly certain I can say with all sincerity, what a load of bo11ocks! At 17 I skippered my first yacht, with an all male crew. I continued to do so for some years until I started my nurse training. When qualified I moved to Africa where I went on safari for 5 months, had my face licked by a hyena, our vehicle got stuck in quicksand for 2 days and we thought we would die, got stampeded by a herd of elephants, bungee jumped twice into the Zambezi, was resuscitated after having a white water rafting accident in the same Zambezi, returned, joined the navy, spent time doing arctic training and living in a snow hole in Norway, worked exclusively with the Royal Marines, lived in Gib, went to Iraq twice where we were bombed and I lived in a gas mask and full PPE for 6 months, went to Afghanistan 3 times, was in charge of the UK's largest hospital ship RFA Argos, got medically discharged aged 40 following a spinal injury I received whilst on active deployment, and am currently living in Colombia. And finally I introduced my husband to sailing. Not the other way around. So I really hope your comment was tongue in cheek because I may have failed to mention in my boastathon but I was also a navy marksman for 10 years and have the badges in my old uniform to prove it. And at 44 I reckon I'm only half way through.

Hmm.... At first I was really impressed, if not a little in love, but on a second reading I became a little sceptical of such claims from someone who misspells the name of the ship of which she claims to have been in charge [/QUOTE]

 

[[29051]]

Why? The answers will be futile guessing unless women answer. They don't have to if they don't want to, so my prediction is there will be hardly any who do

Several of us have. But you aren't going to find many women who don't like sailing on a sailing forum.

 

[Serin]

in answer to the second quote - see the first one!

And to the OP: the real question is not "why don't women like sailing"... it should be "why don't some women not like sailing" - and the answer to that is the same as for some men - some people just find it boring, slow, wet, cold, uncomfortable, hard work.

As a female skipper and boat owner, I have taken many women sailing and only one of them didn't like it.

+ 1 all the way.

I think expectations play a part - Men's expectations of women (and there are some choice ones on show here) and women's expectations of themselves. There is a pervasive assumption that male = skipper which is constantly reinforced in the sailing world, although the overt sexism is not as widespread as it used to be. Even the least sexist blokes talk of "allowing" their wives and partners to do this or that. And women still pick up on this. When they come sailing with a competent female skipper, they see that eternal subordination isn't the natural order of things at all. Women have come to expect equal partnership in marriage, but "man's world" and "man is boss" messages are all around them.

Self confidence is an issue. It's well known that men are generally more confident (and perhaps over confident) about taking on things even when they may not have the necessary experience or skill. I've seen a good few women button their mouths even when they know the bloke is getting it wrong - confidence and, perhaps, a recognition that there are times when intervention will just make things worse. In this context of mutual expectations, many men are less likely to let their partners make and learn from their own mistakes. They will take over. So many women never really learn to take responsibility on a boat, because they never really get the opportunity to learn the way men do - by trial and error.

What holds back many women I sail with is that they have grown used to turning to a man whenever something tough or tricky needs doing. On a boat crewed entirely by women that option isn't available. Most soon start to realise that if it needs doing, they, or another woman is going to have to do it. So they learn to do it. And they learn how much more satisfying it is to have some control over their situation.

Of course, on some boats, women still have to (or choose to, because somebody has to do it) do all the same things they do at home - provisioning, housekeeping, cooking, looking after other people's needs etc. but in much more difficult circumstances. It isn't necessarily a such a positive change of scene as it is for the skipper under God.

I sometimes wonder if men would relish their sailing quite so much if the roles were reversed. Or if their wives got interested in something like, say, netball or golf, and couldn't understand why they wouldn't share their passion or give up every weekend to pursue it.

But Chatting Lil is right. There are plenty of women who enjoy sailing and more and more of us are engaging in it as equals, not eternal subordinates. Many men would be surprised, I think, at what happens when women get the chance to get out of the conventional roles and expectations. Sweeping generalisations about women, or men, are meaningless.

 

[Deviation]

Several of us have. But you aren't going to find many women who don't like sailing on a sailing forum.

:encouragement:

 

[JumbleDuck]

Certainly. I am such a skipper and sole owner of my boat.

My question was whether a Question of Seamanship (QoS) had ever featured a woman skipper with a male crew. I can't ever remember seeing it - the normal setup is the man keen to press on and the woman worried that she'll fall behind with the ironing if he does.

Whilst I'd agree with much of your post I take issue with the yacht club/blazer comment. My impression is that a good club/social side (blazers and ties are of course not integral to this) can be quite an attraction to the sport/pastime at least initially.

I wonder. There was posting on teh Thames Forum about a club wanting more young members to appreciate the lively social programme ... every event on which, when I checked the website, was either "blazer and greys" or "blazer and whites". Is there anyone under the age of, ooh, seventy or so who who finds that sort of setup attractive?

I don't see it that way at all. Nothing sexist about it. Women & wives (being the weaker sex) are not generally known for their sense of adventure, & even when sufficiently successful & affluent enough to afford a yacht of their own, don't do it.

I wish I could see what happened if you said that to my regular sailing companion. Unfortunately she's away on a cycling holiday in Iran at the moment, but I'll run it past her when she comes back.

The one place where I often feel out of place, though, is the chandlery/marine supply outlets. Always have. I'll never forget the time when I popped in to buy some sealant, and had the shop assistant say 'husband sent you out for supplies, has he?'... as if I wouldn't possibly be capable of knowing what to do with a tube of sealant - he probably thought he should say something or I might try and ice a cake with it! Also, if my partner is beside me, if I ask a question, the response will too often be directed back at him - as if I am just some sort of proxy, and won't understand the response. Very frustrating!

Come to Largs Chandlers on the Clyde then, where all but one junior member of staff are knowledgeable women.

 

[sniffyjenkins]

I think one of the biggest issues is endemic sexism in the sailing world, which is still very much built around the idea of jolly good cheps (sic) in blazers and greys at the yacht club bar. It isn't that long since Yachting Monthly boat reviews would contain something like "For the women, the galley is well laid out and food storage is ample..." Luckily we don't see that any more ... but when was the last time you saw a woman in on of Dick Everitt's "Skipper's Notebook" drawings, rather than a lantern jawed chap in beard, sunglasses and baseball cap? Did Mike Peyton every draw a woman skipper, or indeed a woman who appeared to enjoy sailing? Why do all new boat adverts show Giles, in linen shorts and white shirt, steering while the woman gazes adoringly at him or reclines implausibly on the foredeck. Notice anything about that long row of contributor pictures under PBO's "Ask the Expert"?

In short, I don't any woman browsing YM or PBO would feel that she was particularly welcome. I imagine that it's even worse for BME people - has there ever been a non-white person featured in either magazine?

Sexism, yes, in sailing as in all other areas. Sailing just happens to be one of those that is rather more behind than some others.

First off, it sounds like the question posed by the OP was directed at other men. Maybe I'm wrong and it wasn't. I mean, that would be weird, right? Because men don't know the answer. They can't. Because they're men.

OK, I'll stop being facetious. For a while at least. But the point still stands.

I'm a woman. I own a sailing boat, which I love to sail. Some women like to sail, and own boats, some don't. Same as men. Also, I favour sailing boats that put a priority on sailing performance rather than comfort. But I also wear dresses sometimes and paint my nails. Extraordinary (I'm also mixed race which makes me a rare commodity around these here nautical parts and means I experience the super fun extra bonus of casual racism too, but that's a story for another day...).

If women were treated like human beings rather than 'women' as regards to sailing then numbers would be equal. Like in all other areas of our lives. Women are not genetically predisposed to like pink and sparkly things and comfort over performance in the matter of things boaty. We know this. It's science. We are simply brought up this way. Still! In 2016! Unfortunately, society doesn't really care too much about science and the fact that women are indeed human beings like men, and runs instead on old, tired assumptions and stereotypes, 'tradition', biases. “Expectations” as a previous poster put it. Exactly. It has ever been thus and women still often fall into the roles designated for them, whether they know it or not, whether they like it or not. As do men. And both suffer.

You could ask "Why don't women like football?" or "Why don't women like tinkering with car engines?". Obviously some do (like me!). And it's not that more women wouldn't, given equal opportunity by society to like such things. But they're not given equal opportunity and encouragement to like cars and punching each other and computing. Just like boys aren't given equal opportunity and encouragement to like pink and ballet and baking fairy cakes, or whatever.

It's not rocket science. There's a lot been written about it. For years. Centuries, actually. By women. So, you know. If one is genuinely interested, as a man, about the lot of women in sailing and therefore society, one could do worse than read words written by women who have things to say about it, and that would be so great. Seriously.

TL;DR: This is not about women in sailing. It's about gender roles in society.

You did ask.

Anyway. Boats!

 

[Serin]

My question was whether a Question of Seamanship (QoS) had ever featured a woman skipper with a male crew. I can't ever remember seeing it - the normal setup is the man keen to press on and the woman worried that she'll fall behind with the ironing if he does.

Whoops! Missed that. But I don't think I was alone. It's a while since my YM sub expired and I didn't renew, so I've only seen it from time to time, recently. No comment on my post, then?

The setup you describe is the conventional one, but QoS has certainly described situations where the clever old (male) skipper is getting it wrong and, sometimes, the (female) crew recognises that is the case. So, some brownie points for effort.

In my experience female crews sometimes get a hard time from all male ones. It's usually a group thing. Male loners and mixed crews - no problem. I think the old joke still has a vestige of currency:

Old codger at the yacht club bar watches thoughtfully as an all female crew comes alongside the club pontoon. He (an advanced thinker) remarks to his old codger mate: "I think they are doing very well, considering that they have no-one with them"

 

[Blue Sunray]

I wonder. There was posting on teh Thames Forum about a club wanting more young members to appreciate the lively social programme ... every event on which, when I checked the website, was either "blazer and greys" or "blazer and whites". Is there anyone under the age of, ooh, seventy or so who who finds that sort of setup attractive?

Sorry I probably should have said blazers SHOULD not be integral to this - I'm not sure that the Thames is a particularly typical and/or a youngsters' boating area, it's probably got more in common with a home counties or scottish golf club.

 

[pagoda]

My question was whether a Question of Seamanship (QoS) had ever featured a woman skipper with a male crew. I can't ever remember seeing it - the normal setup is the man keen to press on and the woman worried that she'll fall behind with the ironing if he does.



I wonder. There was posting on teh Thames Forum about a club wanting more young members to appreciate the lively social programme ... every event on which, when I checked the website, was either "blazer and greys" or "blazer and whites". Is there anyone under the age of, ooh, seventy or so who who finds that sort of setup attractive?



I wish I could see what happened if you said that to my regular sailing companion. Unfortunately she's away on a cycling holiday in Iran at the moment, but I'll run it past her when she comes back.



Come to Largs Chandlers on the Clyde then, where all but one junior member of staff are knowledgeable women.

I'd agree with that .... they know their stuff inside out.
I f they sail ? I know not?
My wife is a slightly reluctant sailor. Competent but will back off if pressed too hard. I don't expect her ever to like a good F6, but she is a good hand in almost all other circumstances. I've met Ellen Mc'Arthur. As has my wife. Ellen is well off the mainstream as far as women are generally judged, so my wife recognises that and does not want to go there. Nor really do I, the Northern North sea at 25-30 Kts is as exciting as I fancy getting!.
Many women are competent sailors, but more men are interested in general so a bias is inevitable? Ditto this forum.?

 

[pmagowan]

From one female sailor to another, chuffed to bits for you. But more I importantly, how's the galley?!

Near wet myself!

 

[ChattingLil]

TL;DR: This is not about women in sailing. It's about gender roles in society.

nice one Sniffyjenkins. And I liked the TL bit too which I DR!

 

[drakes drum]

Men and women`s attitude towards risk has a tendency to be different. Women tend to avoid risk, men tend to manage it. (You can probably tell that I feel like I`m walking on eggshells by saying this....but I`m saying it...and not avoiding it.....and of course ...there are exceptions to this general rule)

That is biologically correct. In the face of stress, men and women produce different hormones with very different results. Built into us during millions of years of evolution.

 

[Serin]

So, you know. If one is genuinely interested, as a man, about the lot of women in sailing and therefore society, one could do worse than read words written by women who have things to say about it, and that would be so great. Seriously.

TL;DR: This is not about women in sailing. It's about gender roles in society.

You did ask.

Anyway. Boats!

Interesting to note that several men have expressed interest in this topic and in hearing from women about it, but they don't seem to have much to contribute when the women do turn up..........

I agree about gender roles and escaping from them is very liberating. Also, I think there are genuine evolutionary differences and the point about differences in risk taking behaviour are quite well proven, although we are all on a spectrum and the male/female spectrums overlap greatly. As a young woman I worked on big sailing yachts and have often seen women come up trumps and men go all a-quiver when the going gets tough. There might be a few more potential Ellen MacArthurs lurking on family boats than is always obvious.

I'm lucky. Married for 40 happy years to a man who was secure and confident enough to accept me as an equal in all things, including sailing. We sailed together and we sailed apart. He never quibbled about being left at home to look after the cats while I went off on a jaunt with friends. He was stronger in some areas and I in others and we respected each others' knowledge and skills. I, too, have heard many comments of the "he's set you to work, has he?" and "he's sent you to get some bits has he?" variety. And, of course, "where's the skipper?"when boarded by customs or Border Force. At least the blatant sexism that used to be quite usual is fading away.

You're probably right. A lot of men can't comprehend how very different the experience of women in sailing is from their own, unless they are prepared to listen and accept. But I suspect many are also ambivalent about any change to the general status quo. It does tend to suit them quite well.

But I love 'em anyway!

 

[JumbleDuck]

No comment on my post, then?

Sorry - didn't mean merely to quibble. I have made a mental note to sail warily with nurses on board.

 

[han34]

I find this thread interesting because the vast majority of cruising yachts (sail and motor) we meet are sailed by couples(husband\wife). There are about twenty visiting boats here today. All but one are couples. The last few ports were the same. We often sail in company with other couples and see relatively few 'male only' boats.

 

[Serin]

Sorry - didn't mean merely to quibble. I have made a mental note to sail warily with nurses on board.

Its the old fashioned ward sisters you have to worry about. They eat men for breakfast.

I witnessed the incident I mentioned and it was very funny. The crew was mostly male and she had no trouble from any of them for the rest of the trip.

 

[KellysEye]

> find this thread interesting because the vast majority of cruising yachts (sail and motor) we meet are sailed by couples(husband\wife). There are about twenty visiting boats here today. All but one are couples. The last few ports were the same. We often sail in company with other couples and see relatively few 'male only' boats.

It was the same when we sailed in the UK so I'm not sure why some here think women don't like sailing, we saw male/female crews everyhere we visited as we did in the Caribbean. In Burnham-on-Crouch the only male crewed yachts were the racing yachts and that's the same on an Atlantic crossing.