Babylon
Well-Known Member
Duck, lame.
Women and sailing
- Thread starter PabloPicasso
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Duck, lame.
aquaplane
Well-Known Member
Does there? I had better find one.
Serin
Well-Known Member
I have always have trouble getting my head around this point. As a slightly built woman well on the wrong side of 60, I have yet to encounter any real need for brute strength in a long sailing career. I have owned (and raced) many dinghies, a keelboat, a wooden gaffer, of which I was sole owner and a heavy cruising boat, of which I am also sole owner. I have also sailed in many other boats, in size, 70 foot down to my 8 foot lugsail dinghy. I have been "skippering" my own boats regularly since my teens. My crews often consist of groups of women friends, mostly with very little experience. I have also earned my living as an instructor and by working on big yachts sailing all over Europe and the Baltic.
Brute strength was needed to hoist big gaff mainsails on the big gaffers that had no winches, but only if we had limited crew. Otherwise I am hard put to it to remember any situation when my brute strength has been essential. The only one that might tax my strength, I think, would be if the manual anchor windlass wouldn't work. (Currently I handle a 35lb anchor on 12mm chain which is stowed on deck, not the bow roller) Even then, I believe I would manage it, albeit slowly, with help from the engine. As mentioned above, I think what's important is technique, the ability to use the right equipment and the belief that you can do it.
"Problems of perception rooted in femininity" is a red herring and part of the stereotyping issue that has been discussed. Whatever intrinsic differences there may be between men and women, they are all on a spectrum and the spectrums have huge overlaps. And in any case either may confer advantages as well as disadvantages in sailing. I'm afraid what is true of any particular "SWMBO" is by no means necessarily true of other women and might turn out not to be true of SWMBO if she was sailing in some other setting. I've seen that difference often, when SWMBOs come sailing with an all woman crew. You might be surprised.
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dom
Well-Known Member
I haven't read this thread, but two quick technical question if I may:
1. In what world does one attach a 35lb (16kg) anchor to a 12mm chain weighing in at a whopping 4kg per metre 
2. Would manhandling a 12mm chain + anchor dangling on the end not be best best left to those East European/Nordic types ..........blokes or wimmin?
2. Would manhandling a 12mm chain + anchor dangling on the end not be best best left to those East European/Nordic types ..........blokes or wimmin?
Serin
Well-Known Member
1. In what world does one attach a 35lb (16kg) anchor to a 12mm chain weighing in at a whopping 4kg per metre
2. Would manhandling a 12mm chain + anchor dangling on the end not be best best left to those East European/Nordic types ..........blokes or wimmin?
In a world some 40 years ago when we built the boat. She is a heavy boat, though, and ketch rigged, so extra windage. Things have changed.......
In fact, I follow the anchor threads here with interest, because I am thinking of exchanging the current ground tackle for a 12 kg Vulcan on 10mm. That would entail changing the windlass as well. If I do, the new one won't be electric. But at least we have never dragged our CQR, ever. I think we mostly lie to that mighty chain. I have, in fact, weighed that anchor by hand on one occasion - very, very, very slowly. My husband, not a Eastern or Nordic type by any means, was able to do it. However, I do have a decent kedge and warp and in extremis I would just buoy and ditch the anchor and use that.
Incidentally, in my experience, the chain isn't really a problem. The weight of the anchor is the key.
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VO5
Well-Known Member
I have always have trouble getting my head around this point. As a slightly built woman well on the wrong side of 60, I have yet to encounter any real need for brute strength in a long sailing career. I have owned (and raced) many dinghies, a keelboat, a wooden gaffer, of which I was sole owner and a heavy cruising boat, of which I am also sole owner. I have also sailed in many other boats, in size, 70 foot down to my 8 foot lugsail dinghy. I have been "skippering" my own boats regularly since my teens. My crews often consist of groups of women friends, mostly with very little experience. I have also earned my living as an instructor and by working on big yachts sailing all over Europe and the Baltic.
Brute strength was needed to hoist big gaff mainsails on the big gaffers that had no winches, but only if we had limited crew. Otherwise I am hard put to it to remember any situation when my brute strength has been essential. The only one that might tax my strength, I think, would be if the manual anchor windlass wouldn't work. (Currently I handle a 35lb anchor on 12mm chain which is stowed on deck, not the bow roller) Even then, I believe I would manage it, albeit slowly, with help from the engine. As mentioned above, I think what's important is technique, the ability to use the right equipment and the belief that you can do it.
"Problems of perception rooted in femininity" is a red herring and part of the stereotyping issue that has been discussed. Whatever intrinsic differences there may be between men and women, they are all on a spectrum and the spectrums have huge overlaps. And in any case either may confer advantages as well as disadvantages in sailing. I'm afraid what is true of any particular "SWMBO" is by no means necessarily true of other women and might turn out not to be true of SWMBO if she was sailing in some other setting. I've seen that difference often, when SWMBOs come sailing with an all woman crew. You might be surprised.
I am not going to dispute your viewpoints because it is obvious to me that they are the consequence of your experience, which seems not insignificant, I will grant you.
But my experience is not yours. In essence there are four scenarios that come to mind. They are lifting and stowing heavy gear, such as sails. Rowing against the tide. Hard winching in a blow. Handling gas bottles.
I never expect SWMBO to work cables. I do all the anchor work.
Serin
Well-Known Member
I can and do do all those things. When it comes to the winching, a two masted rig makes for smaller individual sails, of course, but it's never been a problem. I learned to row properly before I could sail and I judge how many passengers to embark according to the conditions.
As for heavy gear - I put the liferaft aboard earlier in the month. Trundled it down to the boat on a trolley and hoisted it into the cockpit using the main halyard. No problem. I have dealt with the anchor for a long time, partly because my husband developed some back problems, but also because I know that if there is anything in the routine management of the boat that I can't do, I shall have to import some Eastern/Nordic hunk to do it for me. Sounds OK, but where am I to find one?
(In any case, I'm a very independent minded cuss)
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dom
Well-Known Member
I have dealt with the anchor for a long time, partly because my husband developed some back problems, but also because I know that if there is anything in the routine management of the boat that I can't do, I shall have to import some Eastern/Nordic hunk to do it for me. Sounds OK, but where am I to find one?
I don't want to drift your thread here, but do start another one if you'd like some serious advice on anchors and chain. You might be surprised, but something like a 15kg Spade and Grade-70 8mm chain will be lighter, more reliable, more roll stable and near as dammit as strong as your 12mm chain. It will also be stronger than your proposed Grade-30/40 10mm chain, which I 'suspect' may be somewhat OTT in any event.
Even better, no matter how sweet the motion of your boat, it will be even sweeter with all that weight out of the bows
PS: if you do start a new thread you might want to confine it to precise engineering questions as anchor threads on here can end up like Basra on a bad day!
Babylon
Well-Known Member
Serin
Well-Known Member
Don't I know it! (The Basra thing)
Many thanks, Dom. As far as chain is concerned, my main concern is replacing the windlass as well as the gear. I have, however, reduced the weight by replacing half of it with nylon. Also, there was a great lump of lead ballast up forward that came already installed when the hull arrived and that has been removed, so some balance has been restored.
I've done a fair bit of research and brain picking on the subject of anchors, though. Even if I don't replace the chain and windlass, a lighter anchor would be welcome. No problem getting it to the stemhead, but it is a bit of a pig to bring inboard to stow (although I have my ways and means, including a bit of gear I have created called "mother's little helper") I've looked at all the new generation anchors and also noticed that the Kobra claims you can get away with reduced weight. So does the Fortress, of course, but I'm wary of that one (turning tides)
Whoops - I seem to be starting an anchor thread......HELP! But I may take you up on some advice in another thread. Much appreciated.
dom
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you're well on the way! Just one more thing: as I'm sure you know you will almost certainly only need a new gypsy to covert to a different chain and they often come up on the For Sale Section.
Right time to join Babylon under that rock
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Serin
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you're well on the way! Just one more thing: as I'm sure you know you will almost certainly only need a new gypsy to covert to a different chain and they often come up on the For Sale Section.
Right time to join Babylon under that rock
That's useful, thanks again. It's a very old SL vertical windlass (with warping drum, which is sometimes very useful) so I'm not sure if spare parts would be easy to get hold of. There was a bloke in Glasgow who knew all about them, but he may be deid and gane by now for all I know.
I hope you are not under the rock on my account. I'm a pussycat!
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I solved the heavy lifting thing for my wife
I bought her an electric golf trolley. Seems to have solved the problem.
We no longer argue- we cannot as we do not see each other that much really
Seems to work quite well as her handicap has come down & i get to go sailing a lot more
I bought her an electric golf trolley. Seems to have solved the problem.
We no longer argue- we cannot as we do not see each other that much really
Seems to work quite well as her handicap has come down & i get to go sailing a lot more
Serin
Well-Known Member
Tidewaiter2
Well-Known Member
That's useful, thanks again. It's a very old SL vertical windlass (with warping drum, which is sometimes very useful) so I'm not sure if spare parts would be easy to get hold of. There was a bloke in Glasgow who knew all about them, but he may be deid and gane by now for all I know.
I hope you are not under the rock on my account. I'm a pussycat!
Serin,
A lot of the SL windlass parts were interchangeable, and in our garage is an old electric horizontal S/L with an 8mm drum+ a certain amount of prehistoric but regalvanised 8mm chain.
My Pilot/Electromechanian/ERA/Sparker/Buoy jumper may well give her permission for you to see if it fits!
I am the Master under God of our Boat, and I have my Wife's permission to say so, esp. if all it goes pear shaped
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
I am somewhat bigger, fatter, hairier, and stronger and than my wife. I use brute strength to hoist the main or sheet the genoa. She use's the winch. which one of us is smarter?
There are few things on our boat for which brute strength is required.
My wife enjoys sailing because I enjoy sailing. left to her own choice she would be in a condo in Hawaii instead. Even so I know lots of other women who enjoy sailing on their terms.
I did my first instructor training a few decades ago with a delightful Lady, Gillian West. It would be quite impolite for me to suggest her age at the time. Suffice to say she had somewhat more experience than me.
There are few things on our boat for which brute strength is required.
My wife enjoys sailing because I enjoy sailing. left to her own choice she would be in a condo in Hawaii instead. Even so I know lots of other women who enjoy sailing on their terms.
I did my first instructor training a few decades ago with a delightful Lady, Gillian West. It would be quite impolite for me to suggest her age at the time. Suffice to say she had somewhat more experience than me.
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Jock89
Well-Known Member
As far as I know, this chap John is the only fella that has new spares for these windlasses...I sent my 40 yr old SL windlass to him 2 yrs ago & he did a very thorough internal refurbishment on it.
SIMPSON LAWRENCE Windlass Spares
5 Crestlea Avenue, Paisley,
Renfrewshire.
Scotland.
PA.2-8.BG
0141-589-6287.
Serin
Well-Known Member
Serin,
A lot of the SL windlass parts were interchangeable, and in our garage is an old electric horizontal S/L with an 8mm drum+ a certain amount of prehistoric but regalvanised 8mm chain.
My Pilot/Electromechanian/ERA/Sparker/Buoy jumper may well give her permission for you to see if it fits!
I am the Master under God of our Boat, and I have my Wife's permission to say so, esp. if all it goes pear shaped
Many thanks for this. I suspect my windlass was built before electric ones were usual, so whether the gypsies would be compatible I can't guess. However, I think that I shall probably go for 10mm if I do make this change. Perhaps the Glaswegian gent might be my first port of call. But I do appreciate the thought.
Serin
Well-Known Member
Many thanks for this. My windlass is probably about the same vintage as yours and it has, in fact, visited Glasgow some years ago for a little TLC. I shall get in touch with him.
My thanks to all of you who have offered helpful thoughts.
oldbilbo
...
I'd encourage you to have another think about the Fortress anchor range..... and ask around for 'experience'. For 40-odd years I relied on the mantra that 'the best anchor is the heaviest I can heave around the foredeck'. No longer, after noting on a large and comprehensively-equipped Oyster being delivered that the Front Anchor was a BIG Fortress... and so was the Back One in the lazarette. This was a 'money no object' boat, with the best of everything, and I reasoned that someone who chose the other bits also chose those... for a reason.
I have a Kobra II, larger than they recommend for size, and I also have two Fortress anchors, again oversize in relation to the recommendation chart. The Fortress things, being alu-alloy, are easy to heft back and forth.... and also to stow, for they readily dismount into components and are stored in a neat bag ( see Fortress website - and make your own ). I have replaced the two small bolts/locknuts, requiring the use of tools, with wingnuts and corresponding wing-bolts which don't. So, the arrangement now stows neatly, and is swiftly reassembled.
It works. Well. No, very well.
The only slight caveat is that I keep feeling I have disturbed a deep and fondly-held prejudice.
Edit: I notice that Skip Novak - he of Antarctic voyages and Yachting World videos fame - uses a 2-part whip/halyard to manipulate his MONSTER CQR over the rail and around the foredeck. So also did seamen in the 'age of sail'.
I have a Kobra II, larger than they recommend for size, and I also have two Fortress anchors, again oversize in relation to the recommendation chart. The Fortress things, being alu-alloy, are easy to heft back and forth.... and also to stow, for they readily dismount into components and are stored in a neat bag ( see Fortress website - and make your own ). I have replaced the two small bolts/locknuts, requiring the use of tools, with wingnuts and corresponding wing-bolts which don't. So, the arrangement now stows neatly, and is swiftly reassembled.
It works. Well. No, very well.
The only slight caveat is that I keep feeling I have disturbed a deep and fondly-held prejudice.
Edit: I notice that Skip Novak - he of Antarctic voyages and Yachting World videos fame - uses a 2-part whip/halyard to manipulate his MONSTER CQR over the rail and around the foredeck. So also did seamen in the 'age of sail'.
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