Women and sailing

[pmagowan]

The only time I am in an all female group is when I am with women friends on the boat and, yes - the talk is very different (might be quite revealing to any male fly on the wall) But this is a mixed group composed of people with a common interest - boats, sailing or power boating and the sea. And I would prefer simply to be treated as a fellow sailor.

That is what I suspected. I have heard many times that blokes would get a surprise if they were a fly on the wall at an all girls meeting. I am not sure the reverse is true other than that a girl fly on the wall might be disappointed! I added the bit in brackets because I realise that this is a different situation I just suspect that those extreme cases of single sex groups probably translates in small part to interactions in mixed sex groups. People always adjust how they behave according to the grouping/society they are occupying at the time. We can't help it and often don't even realise it. Unfortunately that can often lead to problems where one sex dominates a particular activity. I suspect, for example, a male nurse might find himself slightly out of his 'comfort zone' in many of the coffee room chats.

So, in this situation I would think you should be able to get treated exactly as you say.

 

[Serin]

However, it seems unlikely from a biological point of view that men would evolve to be about 50% physically stronger (on average) to perform a specific function for the benefit of the species without also evolving mental abilities suited to that function.

I'm not sure how relevant that is, though. Physical strength is rarely so. (I am quite slightly built) We just have to learn to manage the forces, using the equipment and techniques we have. If we had to rely on our own physical strength none of us would sail anything bigger than smallish dinghies. I agree that there are real distinctions, but I also think both genders bring specific strengths and weaknesses to sailing of the sort that may reflect our evolutionary differences.

Sometimes my women sailing companions remark "aren't you strong!" Well, mostly it isn't strength, it's determination. After all Ellen is only a wee thing.........(Didn't protect her from some unbelievably vicious comments from men on the net, though)

I have never found any urgent need to go mammoth hunting on the boat and neither have I felt any urge to go shark fishing, which, I concede, might tax my strength somewhat.

 

[Serin]

So, in this situation I would think you should be able to get treated exactly as you say.

Thank you. Up to now most people here have referred to me (if they did at all) as "he" and assumed I (and other women posters) was a man. OK by me. I have been around boats for about 60 years and that is the significant thing for my participation here. Not the fact that I am a woman (and an oldie at that. No ageism, please. And I did vote remain, so, youngsters, don't blame me!)

 

[Blue Sunray]

I fear a few contributors on here think that their pottering about between Chichester and Studland (other localities are available) makes them into some sort of Chay Blyth/Blondie Haslar and find the thought of females doing the same thing rather spoils their self image as salty old adventurers.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I'm curious. What will that recalibration entail? ... My question is genuine. I would like to know what difference it makes.

None in how I treat people or their views, but I had assumed that this was an overwhelmingly male dominated place and it clearly isn't, or at least not as overwhelmingly as I thought.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Sometimes my women sailing companions remark "aren't you strong!" Well, mostly it isn't strength, it's determination.

And technique. My ex-colleague sailing companion is much smaller than me but she can shift an anchor like nobody's business by working with the movement of the boat. And yes, sometimes I do the anchor - we do almost everything 50-50.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I fear a few contributors on here think that their pottering about between Chichester and Studland (other localities are available) makes them into some sort of Chay Blyth/Blondie Haslar and find the thought of females doing the same thing rather spoils their self image as salty old adventurers.

+1,000,000

I once drove over the Hardknott and Wrynose passes in my 2CV. It wasn't out of machismo or for derring do - I needed to get from Eskdale to Hawkshead and that's by far the shortest route. The 2CV buzzed over the 1 in 4 and 1 in 3 hairpins effortlessly, but I noticed a lot of scowls from the drivers, male every one of them, of very clean 4x4s. "Of course this is the sort of place you really need a big car like this. No normal small car could possibly do it. Haw haw haw damn." However, as we whizzed over the summit of the Wrynose Pass, the driver and passengers of a Range Rover gave us a round of applause, which was nice.

 

[pmagowan]

I'm not sure how relevant that is, though. Physical strength is rarely so. (I am quite slightly built) We just have to learn to manage the forces, using the equipment and techniques we have. If we had to rely on our own physical strength none of us would sail anything bigger than smallish dinghies. I agree that there are real distinctions, but I also think both genders bring specific strengths and weaknesses to sailing of the sort that may reflect our evolutionary differences.

Sometimes my women sailing companions remark "aren't you strong!" Well, mostly it isn't strength, it's determination. After all Ellen is only a wee thing.........(Didn't protect her from some unbelievably vicious comments from men on the net, though)

I have never found any urgent need to go mammoth hunting on the boat and neither have I felt any urge to go shark fishing, which, I concede, might tax my strength somewhat.

It is relevant only as an obvious example of difference. We have loads of less obvious differences too. We were pretty much made to be a team. Those differences help increase the efficiency of the group. There are strong women and weak men as there are caring men and macho women. Each to their own but underneath the bell curve the differences are real and ignoring them is not equality it is stupidity, IMO.

 

[Serin]

Each to their own but underneath the bell curve the differences are real and ignoring them is not equality it is stupidity, IMO.

Do you know anyone who thinks otherwise? I don't.

(I know lots of caring men)

 

[Serin]

And technique.

That's very true. As a young women sailing in big old gaffers (and with them, as well ) I learned to reeve a tackle to advantage. How many young blokes on their RYA courses learn that these days, I wonder? It can make all the difference.

 

[Serin]

None in how I treat people or their views, but I had assumed that this was an overwhelmingly male dominated place and it clearly isn't, or at least not as overwhelmingly as I thought.

Thanks.

 

[Uricanejack]

I'm curious. What will that recalibration entail? One of the reasons I have tended to maintain a gender neutral identity on sailing forums is that I don't want to be treated differently because of it. And I'm afraid that's been my experience in the past, with some male posters.

My question is genuine. I would like to know what difference it makes.

None. far as I'm concerned

 

[Jim@sea]

Its because when sailing you are in control,

 

[Serin]

Its because when sailing you are in control,

What is?

 

[TSB240]

Where I am based there are three main training boats that are regularly crewed up for various courses. I would guess that more often than not the "day skipper" and "competent crew" courses are more heavily subscribed with ladies rather than gents. The opposite is true of the more advanced training being offered. The old codgers doing the training seem to always come back with a big smile on their faces! I hope the balance is being adjusted.

Personally I would really miss my partner if she was either unwilling or unable to continue to sail with me.

Beverley is comfortable to helm in calm conditions and when anchoring or mooring. She happily enjoys the social aspects of sailing and meeting up with other couples. Perhaps we are lucky up here as there are many other couples who join in and who cruise in company.

She has always had and freely admits that she has a spacial awareness problem. She feels uncomfortable in close quarter moves and finds it difficult to anticipate the course of approaching or even retiring craft.
She has two university degrees the second one being psychology. Part of here thesis was to investigate the Spacial Awareness issue which she found to be a more dominant trait in the fairer sex!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/articles/spatial_tests.shtml

 

[Babylon]

In other words, I doubt the notion that there is an instinctive and biological sense of self or gender which is independent of social context.

It would appear both strongly innate but also - as the authors indicate - socially-influenced:

Arch Sex Behav. 2009 Jun;38(3):427-33. doi: 10.1007/s10508-008-9430-1. Epub 2008 Nov 19.
Sex differences in infants' visual interest in toys.
Alexander GM1, Wilcox T, Woods R.
Author information
Erratum in
Arch Sex Behav. 2010 Jun;39(3):816.
Abstract
Evidence indicating that sex-linked toy preferences exist in two nonhuman primate species support the hypothesis that developmental sex differences such as those observed in children's object preferences are shaped in part by inborn factors. If so, then preferences for sex-linked toys may emerge in children before any self-awareness of gender identity and gender-congruent behavior. In order to test this hypothesis, interest in a doll and a toy truck was measured in 30 infants ranging in age from 3 to 8 months using eye-tracking technology that provides precise indicators of visual attention. Consistent with primary hypothesis, sex differences in visual interest in sex-linked toys were found, such that girls showed a visual preference (d > 1.0) for the doll over the toy truck and boys compared to girls showed a greater number of visual fixations on the truck (d = .78). Our findings suggest that the conceptual categories of "masculine" and "feminine" toys are preceded by sex differences in the preferences for perceptual features associated with such objects. The existence of these innate preferences for object features coupled with well-documented social influences may explain why toy preferences are one of the earliest known manifestations of sex-linked social behavior.
PMID: 19016318 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19016318

So why is social-conditioning of an innate instinct in an infant an innate response in adults? We need to think in terms of optimising available human resources in the context of subsistence and survival of small groups in naturally hostile environments.

Subsequent to this, how different pressure-groups socially-engineer culture and belief in a less immediately threatened and far more complex society is another question completely.

 

[Babylon]

Oh, darling, that's so sweet of you.

Love to you too. (and, despite all, I have no doubt that you are a good 'un. I hope that's not patronising, because it isn't meant to be)

Love

Serrie :angel:

My darling Serrie

Not taken as patronising in the slightest - and I'm so glad we've both effortlessly brought this back from the brink!



Babs

 

[JumbleDuck]

In order to test this hypothesis, interest in a doll and a toy truck was measured in 30 infants ranging in age from 3 to 8 months using eye-tracking technology that provides precise indicators of visual attention.

Meh. Could just be that baby girls socialise faster and so respond to human shapes earlier. Psychologists can't do experimental design for toffee.

 

[VO5]

Where I am based there are three main training boats that are regularly crewed up for various courses. I would guess that more often than not the "day skipper" and "competent crew" courses are more heavily subscribed with ladies rather than gents. The opposite is true of the more advanced training being offered. The old codgers doing the training seem to always come back with a big smile on their faces! I hope the balance is being adjusted.

Personally I would really miss my partner if she was either unwilling or unable to continue to sail with me.

Beverley is comfortable to helm in calm conditions and when anchoring or mooring. She happily enjoys the social aspects of sailing and meeting up with other couples. Perhaps we are lucky up here as there are many other couples who join in and who cruise in company.

She has always had and freely admits that she has a spacial awareness problem. She feels uncomfortable in close quarter moves and finds it difficult to anticipate the course of approaching or even retiring craft.
She has two university degrees the second one being psychology. Part of here thesis was to investigate the Spacial Awareness issue which she found to be a more dominant trait in the fairer sex!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/articles/spatial_tests.shtml

Yes, exactly. And think of how boring it would be if the ladies were identical to us. There wouldn't be any romantic mystery or attraction of any sort, would there ?

I am very lucky with SWMBO. She is fabulous in the galley in a heave ho. She is very galley proud and generally boat proud.

But she has limitations. Among them are an absence of brute strength.

The other limitation is directional awareness in terms of closing speeds and direction in the proximity of other vessels.

So on the helm, she has to be given clear instructions in simple language for her to follow. For example, close hauled on Port tack.

I say "if you see the Genoa flutters, it means you are too close to the wind. This is called pinching. It is mean. When you see a flutter, the boat is complaining. The boat is asking for more wind in the sails to keep going. Then you have to be generous and give it the wind the boat is asking for.... Just go a little bit to starboard and you will see the flutter stops..... The boat is saying thank you for responding to its request"....instead of saying " You are too close and any further and you will back the jib and stall her"...because that sort of language (or explanation) is not harmonious to feminine interpretation.

She gets very disconcerted on the helm at night. Finds all the lights "confusing"....then if I brush it off it makes her unhappy, stressed.

Then by giving her a course to steer by compass and one particular light to keep away from it is more comfortable for her to deal with. It is not difficult to make these allowances because in the end result one sustains supervision.

Another thing SWMBO does not like is excessive heeling. I avoid it. We are not racing or trying to discover how far the boat can be tipped over.

She is very good on deck when approaching a berth or a mooring or going to an anchorage.

But I don't put her on the helm because for some reason she gets excited on these occasions - It causes her to muddle engine controls

So there are limitations and I don't stretch her beyond what I know she feels comfortable with.

For example, she has finally been able to distinguish between two very similar helm orders : Stop Engine and Finished With Engine. Again, I think frequently emotions have to be gently and patiently weeded out to be replaced by practicality. It is all part of a learning curve and I think, for the ladies....... more of an acceptance curve than the previous.

I have friends who have totally freaked their SWMBOS by approaching these problems of perception rooted in femininity by applying masculine logic and even resorting to shouting, to the extent they are condemned to sailing alone.

I think it is a matter of patience, patience and yet more patience until the objective is accomplished.

 

[Serin]

My darling Serrie

Not taken as patronising in the slightest - and I'm so glad we've both effortlessly brought this back from the brink!

View attachment 58419

Oh, Babs, you are a sweetheart! Let's never fight again! What's next? Should we get a room or something?

Seriously, though - glad. I hate the way the internet brings makes us (me?) have at it in a way I would never do face to face. Thank you