windward in 20 m/s (appr. F 8-9)

Re: Options

Getting it back up again is a very valid point, but only if that is really a possibilty. In this scenario of being offshore it would seem very unlikely to be needed.

With the main UP, apart from the additional sail area which may well then be excessive for the wind strength, there is the danger from accidental gybes as well as the risk of serious chafe to the sail which might prove a big problem later when the sail IS required. An accidental gybe in those conditions would risk damage to the rig as well as the crew IMHO, even with a preventer.

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Re: Options

It's going to depend on a number of factors.

I've sailed boats that will make to windward with just a head sail and I've sailed boats that ran downwind under main with more life and control than under headsail alone.

I rarely do the direct downwind thing anyway as a reach is more predictable and comfortable. If I've got the wind behind me, and open water in front, I'm looking to keep speed up to reduce pressure on sails and keep good flow over the rudder. This becomes dangerous if wave height starts to create wind shadow or if you start catching the wave in front but thats getting realy extreme and then your looking at heaving to or lying ahull. I wouldn't consider using a preventer in the conditions outlined.

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Is this not the real consideration? In the dips between waves you loose too much power as stated above, however the sails are configured. On the crests the rig drives up to wind, takes a beating, the helm slews off - just in time to drop down and loose power again. So you might hold position in such conditions in a modern boat but fail to make headway.

I have experienced a full gale (upto 42 kn winds) for a number of hours crossing the N Sea - I held minimum reefed main, no foresail, and motored to maintain heading and progress. The boat (32 ft) fell off a lot of pretty big waves but made steady progress. Oh, and it was a bilge boat.. (Westerly)

But if the sea had been in gale for a longer period with seriously breaking waves, I am sure I would have made no progress at all under any combination of power and sail. And I cannot conceive any sub 40 footer aking a better fist of such conditions.

At the other end of the scale, I have experienced a gale in the Channel on a Challenge vessel - 42 tonnes steel, cutter rigged, round the world twice the wrong way, ie made for the job etc. These vesels can make progress in F9, not spectacular, under sail because they have the massive gear and can set sails to tensions regular boat owners cannot conceive. There is therefore no mast distortion or sail flogging - but the boat is incredibly wet, the leeward deck is well under and progress is exhausting.

I conclude there is no mainstream vessel, modern build or tradional, with regular family or club crew, that can undertake any sustained period at sea in open waters and expect to make significant progress against F9 and not risk damage to vessel or crew. The forces are just too great, especially if the sea has run under strong wind for any length of time.

PWG



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Re: Why bother

> if the topping lift is on or the main halyard shackled to the boom end and the
> mainsheet in hard then it is no different than having a full main...

It depends on the type of rig. If you have a tall flexible mast like this X99...

X-99-(SAIL).jpg


then beating with just a jib in heavy conditions does put the mast at risk. When the boat comes off the top of a wave and is stopped dead, as will happen, the main is needed to stop the section of the mast below the runners from moving forward.





<hr width=100% size=1>One day, I hope to own a real boat.
 
You've done it Jimmy... so how do you fancy the foredeck in F9? I do have an inner forestay and storm jib - the boat was built like that - but have never sailed it in more than F7. Even then I was thankful for the rolling gen as the foredeck looked uninviting.
John

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Re: Why bother

Yes I can see that but this was a bit of a side post re Jimi and running downwind in a gale, I cannot see any point in carrying a main for that unless there is a real possibility of having to turn upwind before conditions improve. We have a masthead double spreader rig which is fitted (non-std) with a removeable cutter stay from the top spreaders, backed up by running backstays. Upwind in a real hooley we would use either the staysail or the storm jib on the cutter stay plus a triple-reefed main, the running backstays would be on to prevent the mast panting and to counter the cutter stay loads. We also have a separate track for a trysail, but the sail went with the previous owner, as yet I don't feel like replacing it! Other than some local and smoothish water playing around we have yet to try our latest boat upwind in anger in more than F7, which we did with a lazy rig of half rolled genoa and 2 reefs, I was watching the mast for panting but none was seen so we didn't set up the runners or the inner stay to keep tacking easier for just 2 of us. In reality though my days of real heavy upwind work are long past and the teeshirt used for polishing, if we absolutely had to though I would hope to have had sense enough to set up the extra stay and sail/sheets in good time because doing it in real gale conditions does not bear thinking about.



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Yup .. a boat is not where I'd like to be never mind the fore deck! Suspect that by the time its F9 you're a bit stuck with whatever you've landed up with up at the front of the boat unless there is a compelling reason to change it.When I get the inner forestay fitted I'll be getting the storm jib sorted so that the sheets are already attached etc. Was sort of considering having a bustable bit of string running from tack to head through the hanks in order to keep the jib manageable when setting up. Getting the main down was hard enough without pratting about on the foredeck ... but whilst I've got a trysail it was impractical to deploy it. Would require a separate mast track to do so safely. I've also got a gas strut on the boom so that complicates lowering the boom and lashing it down as well. With an inner forestay unless I was On a short coastal hop I'd be looking at getting that set up in F7ish rather than waiting until later. Think Zephyrsailors epic on her foredeck says it all really.

<hr width=100% size=1>.. when's that again, but ..
 
Catch 22

I don't want our inner forestay set up unless really needed because it interferes with tacking and also needs the runners for support which means another job to do in each tack. Ergo the inner isn't set up unless the conditions look like it will be essential - but then if the conditions look like they might get that bad, we stay in harbour (unless the destination is an easy & safe downwind entrance). If we were contemplating a hard upwind trip whilst still being in harbour, then the inner could be set up easily and safely, and we would probably get better performance from the staysail (or storm jib) plus reefed main than with a heavy rolled genoa. BUT then we would end up with a salty wet headsail to wash/stow away (it's not regularly used so dumping it & leaving it is not a good idea). SOooo, b****r it we'll use the roller which after all we spent extra money on to have a) a double rolling system to roll middle first b) have a triradial genoa with an added foam luff .

If on a long passage well out at sea and IF there was plenty of warning, then the inner stay might well get used. Otherwise if I'm an honest realist we will stick to the roller rather than face an unpleasant and risky task setting up the inner stay on a wildly pitching foredeck, but would probably set up a runner for added support to the mast. Like I said, Catch 22!

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a triradial genoa with an added foam luff

" a triradial genoa with an added foam luff "

have the same type of foresail .. the mutz nutz IMHO!

Only prblem I did have was the sheets chafing against guard rail.

<hr width=100% size=1>.. when's that again, but ..
 
Re: a triradial genoa with an added foam luff

By F9 most will be heading for a storm jib - and they are not allowed (in ORC/ISAF terms) to contain Aramid, polyamides or Carbon - just plain dacron or spectra/dyneema.

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Re: Catch 22

Having sailed a fractional rigged boat for many years with running backstays I can confirm in the conditions you are describing that you will not be charging from tack to tack. The set up of the runners is a simple and quick part of the tacking sequence. It should not put you off using your inner forestay IMO

Regards

Donald

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Re: Catch 22

also, even with a masthead rig, the mainsail is supposed to be deeply reefed: that usually allows to keep _both_ windward and leeward running backstays under tension, no need to worry about them when tacking

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Re: a triradial genoa with an added foam luff

Hydranet by Dimension Polyant is a Dacron with woven in Spectra in both warp and weft at about 6mm spacing, held up to the light you can see what looks like a white gingham square net, otherwise it looks like Dacron.

Yes I agree too, just pointing out that when it is really needed, I don't want the job of fitting the inner stay & storm jib, so it needs to go up sooner, when it isn't needed, so it doesn't get done! Catch 22!

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Re: a triradial genoa with an added foam luff

The time to do most jobs is when you think 'I wonder if' or 'I wonder what ..'

Often militant apathy wins...

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Re: Same discussion?

Hey Gunnar,

looks like you infected the British with the same discussion after all, and it's getting all theoretic again. Real successful thread you kicked off!!!

Cheers,
Harald

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.taniwani.de>http://www.taniwani.de</A>
 
Re: a triradial genoa with an added foam luff

I've got one of these too. Luvverly. One of the advantages of having a relatively small boat is that this kind of kit is relatively affordable. Try specifying these kind of sails for a 40 ft cutter rig!

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