windward in 20 m/s (appr. F 8-9)

[gunnarsilins]

What do you guys think, and/or what are your expriences?

Is a smallish (appr. 30-33') cruising yacht of the 'AWB - Ben-Jan-Bav-Wes-Moo-Hun-Whatever' variety with a normal summer cruising crew (man and wife maybe a kid or friend or two) and with standard cruising sails (roller furling genua, and main with 2 or 3 reefs) cabable of going to windward (for some prolonged time and gaining som ground) in the open sea with an average wind force of 8-9 or more?
I´m not talking of any exceptional wind-against-tide conditions, but with wave-heights you can expect in the open sea with these wind forces.

This question has caused a very intersting debate in one of the major Swedish yachting forums!

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[Roberto]

literally, for an average 30ft charter boat with average equipment I would say no: the thought of a roller reefed genoa in F8-9 brings ghosts of 180° tacks at best, imho

with a little more equipment (esp sails) it certainly is possible: beneteau figaro older first30 are certainly able with some effort to go to windward with gale winds, not sure if you can prepare tea though..

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[jamesjermain]

I would expect a boat of the sort you describe to be able to go to windward in F8. At the top of F9 maybe not because you would not be able to hold on to enough efficient sail. A yacht with only two reefs in the main might have problems because she may have to drop the main altogether, and a well rolled headsail on its own might struggle to generate enough power.

The limiting factor would be the crew. A modern production cruiser in winds over 40 knots would be very uncomfortable and after a period of 12 to 18 hours, the crew might well decide to run off for a rest.

I have to say I have found the sea state to be more important than wind strength. Sweet Lucy, a Swedish designed cruiser/racer of the early eighties, will keep plugging to windward quite comfortable in winds up to 40+ knots provided the wave pattern is regular and long. Once it gets short and irregular, she starts slamming and dropping off waves so that, for comfort, one is inclined to bear off and/or reduce sail until progress to windward is marginal.

The secret with Sweet Lucy and with others of her ilk, is to reduce sail early, keep her upright and bear off a touch to maintain speed, reduce leeway and ease the motion.

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[Guest]

the sheer size of the furled genny does not help at all .... give it hanked or foil sails and better chance of good progress...... but deep reefed on all !!!!!
Not a sensible thing to do in my honest opinion ....


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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[brianhumber]

Would agree with all your comments James, Ronhilda has coped with high winds up to 40/50 kts, but has 3 reefs and I put my small solent jib on the rolling gear if there is any hint of heavy weather. Limiting factor is the sea state and Mine and the crews bottle!. As I ( and the boat ) get older the less crashing to windward for 18 hours plus to make say Cherbourg, Solent etc I want to do. The option of bearing off or returning to a safe ferry port usually wins these days.

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[jimi]

Think the sea state is the critical factor. In large lumps the boat stops dead and its best to be a bit free on the wind to keep the boat moving. The other thing I've found is that if you're too close to the wind then the wave action can yaw the boat around so that the headsail backs .. again best to sail a bit free. I've only got 2 reefs roped, although the 2nd reef is deep, I'll be roping my 3rd reef in future. I'm also looking at an emergency forestay so I can use a hanked on storm jib whick should be more efficient than a well rolled genoa. In a F9 recently I could sail to within 65 degrees of the wind without too much trouble although it was a lot more comfortable when I bore away.

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[ianwright]

"
Is a smallish (appr. 30-33') cruising yacht of the 'AWB - Ben-Jan-Bav-Wes-Moo-Hun-Whatever"

Leaving aside my prejudice against the modern AWB my guess would be that the crew would be the limiting factor. It's very easy to reach a level of exhaustion that precludes anything other than wishing it would all stop,,,,,,,,,,,
My little Vertue can make ground to windward under working jib and three reefs in the main in 60 Kt. of wind but on the only occasion that she did that I could do little else than hang on to the tiller.
Since then she has been given a storm jib and trysail which she and I are much happier with. Even so, I will not willingly go to windward in more than a 6 unless forced to it. It's just not fun. Heave to or run off is better.


IanW

<hr width=100% size=1>Vertue 203, Patience

 

[Mirelle]

Slightly off the topic - but for comparison

I am posting this for comparison purposes.

I have a typical cruiser of the 1930's - 27ft w/l, long keel, gaff rig, displacement 9 tons, ballast 3.75 tons. By F7 her ability to get to windward is very seriously compromised. She has adequate stability and watertight integrity. She does not slam, she is amply strong and her motion, whilst hardly comfortable, is not too bad. Our problem is windage; the hull would still keep going, but the windage is wiping out any gains. I therefore do not consider her safe for coastal passagemaking in F8, because I am not confident of her ability to weather a danger in a foul tide.

F5 = "fun"
F6 = "lively"
F7 = about the limit of being able to decide where you want to go. Getting to windward is now very hard work; she has to be cracked off a bit and kept sailing fast, luffing through the crests.
F8 = able to progress through about 180 degrees, or heave to under close reefed mainsail and staysail, in which case she will make a square drift at 1-2 knots.
F9 = hove to under close reefed staysail (she was happy like this)
F10 = have not tried

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[Twister_Ken]

I have taken a Jenny 36 to w/ward in F8, but it was the most uncomfortable thing ever, and stuff started breaking.

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[pkb]

This is an interesting topic - and its good to see a more serious thread developing -but within the context of your average cruising sailor its slightly abstract.

I'm reminded of a comment from the guy who taught me to sail - it wasn't original I'm sure but nonetheless apposite - ie when you're at sea its the boat that's the professional and the crew who are the amateurs.

The average sailing family (couple+kids etc) in a small/medium or even largish cruiser - would not - probably ever - seek to be out in F8/9 and if they were unfortunate enough to do so then beating to windward would almost certainly be the last thing on their minds.

In one of his books on cruising Des Sleightholme, when talking about the sea conditions which you are likely to encounter as the wind goes through F1/2/3/4/5/6 etc summed the experience from F8 very concisely as "all bad". Nothing I've experienced would make me disagree.

To a full on racing crew then F8/F9 is probably a challenge of some severity to be overcome. For a typical cruising family it would be about survival.

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[Peppermint]

Re: F8 aint F9

The pressure involved in a F9 is considerably greater as is the sea condition.

The vital thing will be can you present a workable sailplan to this strength of wind.

I'd think the next biggest limiting factor will be wave action. Smaller boats have difficulty punching through the kind of sea you can expect in open water.

The next problem will be the crew. Tacking for example will require excellent teamwork to avoid getting knocked back or loosing the foresail. Any mistakes will be punished with lost ground and bruised crewmembers.

A couple of weeks ago, because Jimi was sailing, we had an all night E gale in the Solent. the next morning it was reduced to a F7 but gusty and Peppermint, a 7.7m Scheel keel sloop with furling headsail & deep reefed main, made good progress to windward, VMG was about 2.9knots, with minimal need to play the mainsheet. It wasn't somewhere you'd want to be with the wife and kids, well not if they're like mine, but it was OK.

In open water with a lot of distance to run it would have been different. If I got fed up I could bear away and go somewhere else.

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[Aja]

On Rebel - a 30' Jeanneau Rush we normally cruise with a No3 up instead of the genoa as there is usually just the two of us.

We have experienced a good blow only once in which we had to make to windward (no engine) in Loch Fyne. In an easterly we sailed with No3 and double reefed main until Skate Is where the continued dumping of the main made me fear for the mast. I dropped the main and was able to continue to beat up to Inchmarnock Is with 34 knots apparent under No3 alone. As those familiar with the area the seas at the entrance to Loch Fyne can be short and ugly.

We were still able to make 5 knots but had to come off the wind quite a bit to stop the slamming.

We also washed the windows a couple of times - which is not unusual in this type of boat.

Other than that I was particularly pleased that in those conditions we could still make to windward - and the boat looked after us reasonably well. In saying that there was always the knowledge that we could run for Tarbert or once in the shelter of the Kyles the waves would be more manageable.

Regards

Donald

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[ParaHandy]

i was on a benny which had recently been knocked flat once or twice and can report that all the important things were still working .... (incl the skipper)

my old girl stuck her nose into the solent in a F8 and, after we'd passed the same buoy twice, (spring tide and it was against us) turned back .... i think it was when one of the volvo races was due to start

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[gunnarsilins]

JamesJermain!

Isn´t yours 'Sweet Lucy' a Scanmar 33 or 35?


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[PeteMcK]

My 'Moo' (33 Mk 2) will make useful progress to windward at 55 knots, 60 degrees apparent, but that was in a rough rather than mountainous sea state and with storm jib and "3 and a bit" reefs of the main rolled round the boom. According to the heel angle, we were probably a bit underpowered: couldn't tack - had to wear round and 3 reefs would have been just about right but would have needed more management.
We race quite frequently in F7/8 carrying full main to the bottom of F8 (that's a smallish main on a masthead rig), changing down progressively from No1 at 22 knots to 3, to blade jib at 26, and finally to working jib at 30-32 and only thereafter think about the main. In other words, the total sail area goes from 580 sq ft at 22 to about 350 sq ft at 30 knots. All of that would be with a true tacking angle of 90 at 20 knots to about 110 at 30-ish. The storm jib is for about 40/45+ but I try to avoid being there. I might be a bit twisted but there are all sorts of reason I don't trust roller headsails and don't have one.
As others have said, in F8-9 the great variety of possible sea conditions is the real issue and having too little power can be a real danger. Given that the wind forces vary as the square of the speed, and the combination of windage (disproportionate as it's not something you can 'reef'!) and the hull resistance in waves requires that you get the maximum practicable power from the sails, the balancing act between being over/under canvassed going to windward at F7 and above becomes increasingly critical. And these are the conditions in which the roller genny will let you know all there is to know about its deficiencies (inc. mechanicals, parasitic windage, woeful aerodynamics, etc.)
I answer to the original question, I think the boats can do it, but roller headsails will greatly diminish their capacity so to do. And those with lightly constructed hulls and interiors will shake themselves to bits in the process.

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[Aja]

Pete

Moodys' are well known for being able to stand up to a blow. Unfortunately, although my vintage of Jeanneau is robustly constructed and not liable to be shaken, Ron Holland did not design the boat for heroics - certainly short handed, although the original owner did not have any qualms by purchasing the boat from Jeanneau and sailing her in two legs to Oban!

I have to admit that in 40/45 knots the two of us would not be thinking of changing sails (we do have dedicated foresails including a storm jib) but more of survival - looking for the nearest down-wind bolt hole.

Proves the point that boats are designed and built for different conditions!

On the other hand - fully crewed up and with the right sails set for the conditions - I have found the boat to be most satisfying.

Regards

Donald

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[jimi]

I'd suspect that if you're carrying a full main to the bottom of a F8 that you're perhaps just a smidgeon undercanvassed in light airs?

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[Samphire]

Come on folks,wise up.Not a chance of a light modern 30-33ft production cruiser going to weather in those conditions,apart from the lightlyhood of iternal furniture coming adrift the from hull where bonded, no "family" would stick it.We are not talking 50kts in the occasional gust in Loch Fyne here.The original question posted was open sea.
In addition being realistic ,with two/three reefs in main and a slamm headsail you wont manage better than 60 deg to the wind.
I'd say even a heavy 40ft cruising boat would be well pounded.Modern rigs on thes production boats are too light to take this kind of sailing without permanent damage resulting.
Samphire.

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[jimi]

Disagree .. my rigs got no damage at all and I've been in sustained F9 including 2 knockdowns. Only damage to boat was bent stanchion, shredded dodger, torn sprayhood and loose bit of internal furniture where I hit it at the end of my trajectory! Oh and a lost fender

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[dom]

Conventional wisdom is that heavy long keelers go to windward well and modern boats badly. Is this not too simplistic. Long keelers less than 50' have a tendency to hobby horse with keels stalled and go nowhere. AWB cruising boats (including Beneteau, Bav, Moody, Oyster etc) get overpowered easily. Modern deep keeled racing or cruiser/racer designs (swan first, x-yachts) are fast with highly efficient keels but wet and the narrow bows reduce internal space.

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