windward in 20 m/s (appr. F 8-9)

[Twister_Ken]

Gosh yes...

...that would make life lots easier.

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[DeeGee]

Re: True gale or apparent gust?

Nah, it WAS F9 when the last sample taken, but it's dropped down to F6 by now!
)

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[dom]

Re: I\'ll buy that F9, certainly.

I have not sailed all my life in the channel but in jan 2002 sailed to Cherbourg from solent in a westerly wind averaging 40kts or so. Sea state on the flood was somewhat tame in relation to wind strenght and later on the ebb quite nasty with many breaking waves - which incidentally would not have normally occurred on the ocean. Indeed I think it is well known that shallow waters and strong tides are a toxic mix and the channel brigade have a fair dose of both! Also on the ocean although the fetch is great the seas are often well spaced out. Sometimes the worst conditions develop when a front passes, the winds fall and a cross sea develops.

As for boat design surely this AWB thing is a bit silly. I always thought that the right crew who know their boat, the right boat and the right sails were what mattered most and in that order. As for survivability a production First 38 was second in it's class in the ill fated Sydney Hobart race and a Beneteau 50 finished. I would also note that Farr designs dominated - the same Farr that designs that AWB "First" range. I would also note that the Wolfson tests in Southhampton were not conclusive on design albeit suggested that AVS,s of some boats were far too low.

As for windward performance no boat will go to windward with blown out old bags for sails and on the other hand nearly all boats can fight to windward with good sails and a good crew. From the boat's perspective the worst culprits for windward performance are shallow draft, full bow sections, excessive windage (furling sails, windscreens, lazybags etc) and shallow rudders. By these measures some of the AWB's are great and some not so good. The same applies to all manufacturers as it just depends on what compromises they make.

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[AndrewB]

Dunno about you but ...

... if I find myself caught in bad conditions, then (a) yes I am getting all the weather information going and (b) yes I do tend to check up afterwards to find out what it 'really' was. Generally an anticlimax, at least by Scuttlebutt standards!

PS The CG are very helpful in heavy weather. Perhaps they miss all those calls from the radio-check guys, who are staying safely tucked up.

 

[claymore]

Re: Dunno about you but ...

Is there the hint of a mixed message in there - I'm not sure what you mean by 'at least by Scuttlebutt standards'? Are you saying that the people who claim to have been out across the Channel in what they thought were gales were probably only out in strong winds - I worded that a bit clumsily...

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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[Mirelle]

Apologies for causing a distraction!

Anyway, as noted elsewhere, a home-judged F7 is the upper limit of my (9 ton displacement, 37ft OA) boat's windward ability, due mainly to excess windage. To be honest, going to windward stops being fun (if it ever is) somewhere around F5.



<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[ChrisE]

Couldn\'t have put it better meself

Last year we spent 5 hours in F6 trying to get round S. Ireland and eventually gave up & went to Kinsale. As I said in my earlier e-mail you are much braver men and women than me.

Who was it who said "Gentlemen don't go to windward."

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[Peppermint]

Re: Your in what you think your in

If you feel like it's a gale then it's a gale.

If I get caught out in a blow, in coastal waters, what force or windspeed is of no interest to me at all. I require no more weather info. Why should I? It's already let me down. The time for high flown thought is gone and it's biting and gouging in the gutter time. I do get more interested in my position and my VMG though. Your salvation or relief is on the chart not in a forecast.

I don't listen to many forecasts anyway and if I do it's to see if they tally with what I'm looking at.

If you sail with a lot of newbies they are obsessed with windspeed and rating but to me they're irrelevant. There are only two types of wind that that will allow you to go where you wish and that that won't. The deciding factor can be what sort of mood your in.





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[ChrisE]

The original post was based upon open seas

...then your have no option but to tough it out. Going to windward would be my last option but if it had to be done then I guess I'd try to do it. But all things benig equal it would be out with the series drogue, close all hatches, top off whisky bottle, throw away, etc.

Am I getting repetitive?

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[PeteMcK]

Why bother

Even with my vestigial main, I would normally get rid of it running in these conditions.

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[jimi]

Re: Why bother

There was an interesting post a few months ago that reckoned that jib only could cause the mast to pant possible causing rig failure. I'd think I'd prefer to retain some sort of main if there's no risk of a gybe in order to keep the speed up. I did drop the main eventually and although I regained full rudder control I lost a bit of speed, whilst more jib may have been an option, I would definitely like to split the sail power in these conditions. It also gives you a heaving to option.

<hr width=100% size=1>.. when's that again, but ..

 

[Jules]

Re: Your in what you think your in

I couldn't agree more.
It would be interesting to have wind instruments calibrated at the top end of their readings. I don't have any, for the reason that it is pointless information unless you have a racing sail that the maker reckons will disintegrate over 15.34 kn.
Some of these posters would be better advised to get better forecasts, or maybe they prefer scaring their crew s*itless. I've crewed in big blows for others, and invariably wished for it to end asap, wondering what the owner was trying to prove. (off the wind is fun tho)
It would need to be a dire world-saving event to make me need to beat in more than a 5 in anything under 50ft loa, and if you need to crab off a lee shore what are you doing there in the first place? There's always the Yanmar........


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[claymore]

Re: Your in what you think your in

<Some of these posters would be better advised to get better forecasts>
I think thats a bit unfair - the Met Office for example can give forecasts that are absolutely faultless sometimes and then quite inaccurate at others - your own experience of the North Channel for example would probably suggest that there have been times when local anomalies have created conditions that were not forecast?

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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[Mirelle]

Narrow seas

I think there is all the difference in the world between a gale with nothing to leeward for a couple of hundred miles and a gale with a coastline or rocks or sandbanks twenty miles dead downwind.

In the former case, one just waits for it to stop. In the latter case....

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[Robin]

Re: Why bother

We use jib only in bad weather downwind, if the topping lift is on or the main halyard shackled to the boom end and the mainsheet in hard then it is no different than having a full main IMO. Where I would worry about the risk of mast panting is with a separate storm jib stay that is fixed lower than the masthead, say at the top spreader, unless running backstays are available and especially going upwind. This is actually what we have, a removable inner stay from the top spreaders, but with running backstays to back it up.

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[Jules]

Re: Your in what you think your in

I agree local "anomalies" are sometimes the norm, if that makes sense, but not forecasting a force 9?? Michael Fish should be strung up by his bulls, which have only just healed after 1989.
I would not go outside my house in the severe storms some of the contributors seem to experience on a weekly basis. And they call us northern folk tough eh?
As an aside what about a forum gathering on a exposed croft (is there any other sort) on Lewis for a month in January. Something at 500 ft high should show them what a good breeze can do. Try beating into that me hearties!

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[jimi]

Re: Your in what you think your in

mmmm .. would'nt have ventured out if the weather had been forecast ... but it was'nt ...first time F5, second time F6 was the max forecast. Its one of the risks of winter sailing ... and for your info I've experienced hurricane force winds at the top of the Cairngorm plateau in winter when literally the only way to progress was crawling along on hands and knees .. so I do'nt need any lectures about what a stiff breeze constitutes thank you.

<hr width=100% size=1>.. when's that again, but ..

 

[PeteMcK]

Fair point

And I suppose once you get into fractional rigs and multiple swept-back spreaders it can get a bit complicated. My simply supported tree trunk seems to handle it ok. Strangely enough, it's upwind, hanging on to far too much, i.e., the lot, and with everything strapped in that can make my rig jump about in a very scary way: presumably from almighty vortices spilling over the top. I try to avoid going there.

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[Twister_Ken]

Re: You\'re in what you think you\'re in

Ooh - a trifle tetchy perhaps?

How did you get Glen Rosy onto the Cairngorm plateau. The Crinian canal?

P.S. Bad case of missing apostrophes in this sub-thread title. Can't stand it any longer.

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[Peppermint]

Re: Options

I'm with you Jimi.

If you take the main down and then find your plans have changed getting it back up might be a tad testing. When you round up and start the hoist, thats also when the rigs at most risk.

Of course some boats, some of the Bav's spring to mind, don't steer to well with the main involved in heavy downwind work.

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