Wind Speed

[Babylon]

SolentBoy v Beaufort

If you really want bands, make them form zero to ten, ten to twenty etc. at least new sailors could learn them. Do you really think the youngsters of today want to learn Beaufort, when all the websites are in knots or mph?

Lets follow this logic through:

SB1 = 1-10Kts = Bft 1, 2, 3
SB2 = 11-20Kts = Bft 4, 5
SB3 = 21-30Kts = Bt 6, 7.5
SB4 = 31-40Kts = Bft 7.5, 8

Beaufort effectively gives twice as many forces as SolentBoy's bands, and the difference between the bottom and top ends of SB's bands (eg SB2 and SB3) is so great as to be effectively useless in decision-making or bar-room bragging.

So, lets double the number of SB bands:

SB1 = 1-5Kts = Bft 1, 2.5
SB2 = 6-10Kts = Bft 2.5, 3
SB3 = 11-15Kts = Bt 4
SB4 = 16-20Kts = Bft 5
SB5 = 21-25Kts = Bft 6
SB6 = 26-30Kts = Bft 6.5, 7
SB7 = 31-35Kts = Bft 7.5
SB8 = 36-40Kts = Bft 8

and you've got rough parity with the Beaufort Scale, except that the subtlties at the bottom and top ends of the Beaufort forces get a little divided up - and we still haven't yet got round to dealing with sea-state.

The beauty of the Beaufort Scale was that it evolved according to how much canvas a typical frigate could carry in any given set of conditions of wind-speed and sea-state, which isn't much different from how much canvas a modern yacht can carry in the same given conditions. We can impose an arbitrary mathematical division of bands, but - like unimaginatively straight lines drawn by colonial politicians on maps of Africa - these take no account of the practical subtleties of the situation on the ground or, in our case, on the water.

 

[Kerenza]

Beaufort may be good for ocean sailing but 20 knts over 4knts of tide inshore can be a very different sea state when the tide turns.
What I need to know is apparent wind speed, VMG to windward and use my brain to observe sea state and gusts.
And if the forcast indicates changing wind I can prepare myself.
As far as banding goes how often do people sub divide Beaufort. Bottom end of 6, 4to 5,top of 3 etc.

 

[Seajet]

Anyone with a hint of experience can work out 'in these waters with the tide doing X, it will be....in a Force X'.

Anyone expecting a forecast to be accurate within knots is likely to be disappointed at best.

 

[Kerenza]

Exactly my point. Which makes the Beaufort sea state info quite dangerous if you apply it without thought, and if you have to interpret it why not work from a less colourful data source?

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Forget for a moment, if you can that we have invented the Beaufort scale.

The powers that be form a task force whose job is to develop a scale for measuring wind speed.
The universally adopted measures of speed are imperial miles per hour, kilometres per hour, or knots for things nautical or navigational.

The task force meets for its deliberations and proposes the following.

1. To use knots as the basis..................OK so far.
2. To divide wind speeds up to 63 knots into 12 divisions..............You are now starting to lose me.
3. To have no linearity whatsoever in the 12 divisions, so learning what they are is like one of those advanced intelligence tests i.e. 1,3,6,10,16,21,? What comes next?.........You have now completely lost me.

Of course, when the highly paid team of buffooons report their deliberations they will probably waffle on about how these sectors have been chosen more to represent the power of the wind than the actual speed, but I really would hope that in this imaginary meeting the chairman of the appointing body tells them to go back, sharpen their pencils, and come up with something that can be understood and easily remembered by everyone, not the cherished few who like to hang on to these conventions.

 

[Seajet]

If people think the Beaufort scale is 'dangerous' and can't understand wind force - imagine holding a bit of plywood up against the wind if that helps - and have to use a dial or LCD figures to tell them what's going on all around them, they probably should be locked up in an attic rather than in command of a sailing boat...

 

[franksingleton]

A good read is "Gale Force 10" by Richard Courtney. It will put this thread into perspective.

 

[webcraft]

if people think the beaufort scale is 'dangerous' and can't understand wind force - . . . They probably should be locked up in an attic rather than in command of a sailing boat...

+1

- w

 

[Kerenza]

I think you will agree that any criteria applied without thought is likely to be dangerous.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

If people think the Beaufort scale is 'dangerous' and can't understand wind force - imagine holding a bit of plywood up against the wind if that helps - and have to use a dial or LCD figures to tell them what's going on all around them, they probably should be locked up in an attic rather than in command of a sailing boat...

What you say has merit (see, I can be nice), but it misses the point.

This is not about being able to see what is going on around you, this is about a scale that is used for written, spoken and electronically communicated information.

If you are sailing, you can feel the wind. Whether you can say what Force it is doesnt really matter, you can make your own decision about the conditions.

What does matter is when someone gets the forecast and cannot relate it to the conditions because they haven't learnt "the code."

Kids get taught metric and some imperial in school. They grow up seeing weather forecasts and learning about wind speeds. One day they take up sailing, and now have to learn a completely new, non-linear scale that is actually unneccesary.

Not a problem for long though. Vast tranches of the world, probably the majority actually, do not use Beaufort. Just a matter of time before it dies along with the rest of illogical, but quaint old systems like imperial.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

The Beaufort scale for yachtsmen in the twenty-first century

Skipper’s version vs. Crew’s version
0–1 Drifting conditions. Boredom.
2 Set large sail to catch wind. Mild pleasure.
3 Large headsail and full mainsail. Pleasure.
4 Start rolling headsail. Great pleasure.
5 Reduce headsail further, one reef in mainsail. Delight.
6 More rolls in headsail, two reefs in mainsail. Delight tinged with anxiety.
7 Three reefs in mainsail and small jib. Anxiety tinged with fear.
8 Deep reefed mainsail. Fear tinged with terror.
9 Set storm jib and trysail. Great terror.
10 Survival conditions. Panic.

All from this interesting read.

 

[Seajet]

Unless things have changed hugely which I rather doubt, sailing instruction books from basic to advanced, and sail training courses, all explain then work in Beaufort; you don't need to be crusty or use a ouija board to be exposed to and learn it as soon as starting sailing.

 

[Kerenza]

I got that tongue in cheek card from with an order I received last year. However I first saw it referred to, but not the source credited, in "strong wind sailing" by Richard Henderson in 1988.
He went to great lengths to modify and update the Beaufort definitions, so I guess this discussion is not new!
I also note now, having just looked it up, that even in "heavy weather sailing" (my v4) most references are to wind speed I knots with force in brackets. Although AC tends use Beaufort regularly when estimating.
Guess its aimed at a worldwide audience even then.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Unless things have changed hugely which I rather doubt, sailing instruction books from basic to advanced, and sail training courses, all explain then work in Beaufort; you don't need to be crusty or use a ouija board to be exposed to and learn it as soon as starting sailing.

I will disagree with you forever on this, no matter how entertaining your replies are.

There are some people in the world, in fact most, that do not use it, but still manage to sail reasonably well.

Here are a few examples of countries that have decided not to use Beaufort.

Australia - latest forecast for south eastern area.
Forecast
N/NW winds 30/40 knots within 240nm east of front. Winds easing below 34 knots
throughout area by 161200UTC. Rough to very rough seas. Moderate swell.

America - latest forecast for Calififornia.
NW WINDS 15 TO 25 KT WITH GUSTS TO 30 KT

Sweden - Stockholm Archipelago
AT FIRST VRB 2-6 (metres per second).. TOWARDS NOON MAINLY AROUND S. AT TIMES MOD-POOR VIS I SNOW.

How do all these people survive without Beaufort? Simple, its a choice, and I just think they have made a better one than us on this topic.

 

[bbg]

Frankly, anyone who cannot immediately convert knots to Beaufort and Beaufort to knots from memory, is a little bit dim.

That's me, then. I had to get to Brazil and go online before I realised I'd sailed through a 9, and that it took so long to get to Brazil because I'd been going upwind into a 7 for three days. I had no idea!

I'm with snowleopard on this one. It is purely a question of personal preference, and it really comes down to how you learned it when you started sailing. It's a bit like arguing whether bouyage system A or B is "better".

(Cue new thread on this topic by someone who thinks it is important enough to discuss.)

 

[Roberto]

Much easier to undestand beaufort when struggling to receive and translate a weather forecast in French.

happily we do not sail in hurricane areas, could you imagine deciphering "soixante-dix-sept noeud", or "quatre-vingt-dix-neuf noeuds"

 

[alant]

A good read is "Gale Force 10" by Richard Courtney. It will put this thread into perspective.

So will this

http://weather.mailasail.com/Franks-Weather/Why-Use-Beaufort-Scale

Good read by the way!

 

[franksingleton]

So will this

http://weather.mailasail.com/Franks-Weather/Why-Use-Beaufort-Scale

Good read by the way!

Thank you, kind Sir>