Wind gen's & Marina Etiquette

Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

[ QUOTE ]
"Will it not short my batteries when I use a stop switch?"
When a single pole, double throw switch that is rated for proper current and voltage is connected as shown in the manual, the turbine positive is disconnected from the batteries BEFORE being connected to negative. It is important that your stop switch be of the type that opens the circuit between positions. This is commonly referred to as a “break-before-make” switch. Be sure to install a fuse in any case.

[/ QUOTE ] That may be the answer to another question - is it safe to short a wind generator in a gale?

At the suggestion of the supplier, I put a bog-standard Halfords 25A switch across the output leads of my 913, between the generator and on-board regulator. In the short position, it slows the noisily spinning blades to a noiseless crawl (no brinelling there, then!) and hasn't flattened the battery, presumably because the regulator incorporates a device to prevent reverse current flow.

I wouldn't put up with a generator moaning away all night in a marina. Bad enough on a neighbour's boat, but I would be mortified if it was my own.

However, my supplier added the rather dark comment that he wouldn't use the short switch in a gale. Perhaps I should instal a 25A fuse on the short circuit before I try it.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

It sounds to me like you don't know the difference between understanding what you are talking about and paraphrasing Wikipedia to make it look like you know what you are talking about.
Let me give you a tip - always change the KEY WORDS in your extract rather than the verbiage round about.

I am an engineer of 30 years standing and I understand the differences.

You STILL don't have a valid point - I don't actually care whether the brinelling is "false" or "real", the effect is the same in the end.

I did not say it could not be detected in bicycles - remember where I described adjusting the cones until you could feel the 'bumps'?

"It HAS been detected in car wheel bearings"..?
An INTERESTING choice of tense (my emphasis) implying that a normal wheel bearing play test at MOT will not do it.

You are arguing for the sake of it and wasting my time, I am not going to bother refuting all your statements one at a time.

Not only that but you have turned round and are now arguing FOR the phenomenon you started out arguing AGAINST!

There is a colloquialism in Scotland that probably means nothing to you but will give me great pleasure in applying...

You are a TUBE! (pronounced "choob") Go back to the lounge where you belong.

edit- (that does not imply the epithet applies to ALL lounge frequenters!)
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, he also has two 'picnic table' size solar panels and is always plugged into the shore power... Its like being berthed next to Sellafield!

[/ QUOTE ]
In that case I would definitely complain. The only logic I would accept for leaving one of these things spinning in a marina would be a reluctance to hook up to shore power because of a concern about galvanic action.

I believe the blades are far more dangerous than appears from their weight due to the electrical inertia present at the time a human body part attempts to interrupt rotation.

You should not have to wait for a chance meeting with the new neighbour so I suggest explaining your dilema to the marina office indicating you would like to have a chat with the owner on the phone. They won't hand out his telephone number but it will get the ball rolling down a less officous route.

Alternatively I once found a long piece of masking tape tangled in the rigging after it had blown across the harbour. I suppose such a piece of masking tape could make a fortuitous collision with that turbine and disable it!
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds to me like you don't know the difference between understanding what you are talking about and paraphrasing Wikipedia to make it look like you know what you are talking about.
Let me give you a tip - always change the KEY WORDS in your extract rather than the verbiage round about.

I am an engineer of 30 years standing and I understand the differences.


[/ QUOTE ]

I make no apology for lifting the description of Brinelling from another source, it clearly showed you were describing False Brinelling whilst calling it Brinelling /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
You STILL don't have a valid point - I don't actually care whether the brinelling is "false" or "real", the effect is the same in the end.


[/ QUOTE ]

The cause is quite different, and the prevention is quite different.

[ QUOTE ]
I did not say it could not be detected in bicycles - remember where I described adjusting the cones until you could feel the 'bumps'?


[/ QUOTE ]

You told us that unless the bike was bolted to station railing that the vibration could not effect the bike.

[ QUOTE ]
"It HAS been detected in car wheel bearings"..?
An INTERESTING choice of tense (my emphasis) implying that a normal wheel bearing play test at MOT will not do it.


[/ QUOTE ]

You told us that cars cannot get it because of the pneumatic isolators and that they did not use ball races for wheel bearings. By the way, the MOT test does not only test for play.

[ QUOTE ]
Not only that but you have turned round and are now arguing FOR the phenomenon you started out arguing AGAINST!

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, I never doubted the existance of the phenomenom, But I doubted (and still doubt) that short term tying up of a wind generator would ruin it.

Now I am attacking your argument, not you personally, I will leave no message in response to the name calling, but I will say this, one of the benefits of the forum is to challenge assumptions, even 30 year old assumptions.

You for example, may now understand that ensuring your compressor ball races are sufficiently greased could prelong the mean time between failure (in addition to the programme of rotation), I for my part will be checking the grease level in my head bearings and wheel bearings more frequently as further research showed that a particular motorbike manufacturer was known to be mean with the grease on their bearings.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

[ QUOTE ]

I make no apology for lifting the description of Brinelling from another source, it clearly showed you were describing False Brinelling whilst calling it Brinelling /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

You STILL don't have a valid point - I STILL don't actually care whether the brinelling is "false" or "real", the effect is the same in the end.

[ QUOTE ]

You told us that unless the bike was bolted to station railing that the vibration could not effect the bike.


[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed - we were discussing "direct coupling" and your point?...

[ QUOTE ]

You told us that cars cannot get it because of the pneumatic isolators and that they did not use ball races for wheel bearings. By the way, the MOT test does not only test for play.


[/ QUOTE ]
I believe the words I used were "less susceptible" not "cannot", you can't even be trusted to read correctly, and I'm not getting dragged into another ridiculous side-issue on what the MOT entails - good try at another troll though!

[ QUOTE ]

I never doubted the existance of the phenomenom, But I doubted (and still doubt) that short term tying up of a wind generator would ruin it.


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't care! All I said was that that was the reason people say don't tie up your genny - take it up with them since it seems to bother you so much! YOUR opinion is of no importance to me, I'm still only responding because the opinion of others IS important to me.

[ QUOTE ]

Now I am attacking your argument, not you personally, I will leave no message in response to the name calling, but I will say this, one of the benefits of the forum is to challenge assumptions, even 30 year old assumptions.


[/ QUOTE ]
It's not assumption! IT IS FACT!
Next time you want to challenge something pick a subject that you can speak on with authority (hint - google is not "authority").

And your attack is personal, how can it not be? You took as much out me as you could in your first few trolls until you found it neccessary to find another hair to split and misunderstand by googling.

[ QUOTE ]

You for example, may now understand that ensuring your compressor ball races are sufficiently greased could prelong the mean time between failure (in addition to the programme of rotation), I for my part will be checking the grease level in my head bearings and wheel bearings more frequently as further research showed that a particular motorbike manufacturer was known to be mean with the grease on their bearings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get this? Are you trying to tell me how the bearings on the 600 plus industrial compressors that the company I work for manufactures and have manufactured every year for over 50 years should be lubricated on the basis of a half hour of googling? AND having never heard the term brinelling until this thread!!!

You are either a complete fool or a genuine, solid, 24-carat TROLL and I make no apologies for the personal nature of my reponse.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

[ QUOTE ]
I maintain that over 25mph to switch lane, the head bearings do not move, they certainly do not move when sitting in traffic or going in a straight line.



[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong on that one. They've proved it by locking up the steering on a bike and asking a good rider to try and steer the bike on a track simply by using body weight. Cant be done.

What actually happens is that you put forward pressure on the inside handlebar of the bike - countersteering. Thing is that the vaste majority of us learned to do that very early on with our push bikes as kids, the movement is small, and its subconscious.

Steering head bearings eventually fail even on modern Jap bikes, and did so regularly with my old Brit bikes. Whether thats brinelling or just corrosion , I dont know. To be honest I would have thought that Brinelling is only really relevant on reasonably loaded bearings. But then you have to ask what happens with bikes with roller bearing cranks where there is a good load, unlike a wind gen.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

If I go through a point by point analysis of your last post, you are going to feel this is another attack, and this is not my motivation for the challenge of presented assertions.

I am genuinely sorry you see this as a personal attack, I can see that when someone challenges assertions it can feel like a personal attack, but I have not called you names or made assertions about you personally, or your reasons for posting.

The great benefit of this forum is that it challenges my asssumptions, I have viewed furious debates here that have changed my thinking, (and of course others that make me more convinced of a notion).

Don't get me wrong, if an expert can provide an explanation that can be backed up, I am not going to argue for the sake of it, but experts have told me endowment mortgages were the best, that I should opt out of the defined benefit pension scheme, that my boiler needed replacing immediately (10 years on and counting, and all it needed was filter changes and replacing the fuel feed pipe), that the carb needed replacing (it just needed a 50p rubber diaphram), that I should move the outboard fuel can from the gas locker (draining outside) to the main locker (draining under the engine and into the bilges and over the wiring and pooling by the bilge pump).

On the other hand this forum's experts have given me the confidence and knowledge to tackle jobs on the boat that I thought I would never be able to do, and exposed risks that I would never have considered or would be found in an instruction manual.

Personally I am grateful for the debate, (minus the name calling /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) as it has increased my understanding of the ways I can increase bearing life. I continue to maintain that short term teathering will not cause harm because false brinelling is linked with vibration derived lubrication loss over time, as opposed to vibration on a stationary bearing being a problem in it's own right.

Apologies for any offence caused.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

I did consider locking the steering on the way home last night, but my life insurance is not up to date /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I did observe changing lane could be done without touching the bars, and I could not see the head move, but that is not cast iron proof I know, but I am convinced that any movement was microscopic.

I do not know if anyone has ridden a racing motorbike, but I understand that they have dampers to stop unwanted handlebar movement, and yet are able to traverse hair pin bends. Yes I realise they have the power to let the back slide out, but wondered how restrictive the dampers are ?

I was reading in Ride the other day that a certain Jap motorbike manufacturer was mean with it's lubrication on head bearings and that a certain model does benefit from customer lubrication before fitting, that would fit with the false brinelling theory, but it is also clear that the failure was over time not as the result of a small instance (otherwise they would lose a fortune in warranty claims).

At least we now know what we can do to increase mean time between failure. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

What a ridiculous thread.

You know if your windgen is antisocial. Some are, some aren't. X-Air users are selfish barstewards who should be shot on sight. Aerogens OTOH make no discernible noise.

Aerogen used to say never tie the blades. They now say do it in winds above 50 knots. I can just imagine it caught out in a F10 half way across Biscay:

"OK dear, here's a sail tie. You can reach it easily if you balance on the pushpit. Watch the Navtex aerial!


- W
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

Why are you hanging your post on my name?

As if it was my problem - I have no axe to gring in the windgen issue - ALL I DID WAS TO SUGGEST BRINNELLING WAS A REASON SOME ADVISED AGAINST TETHERING A WIND GENNY.

And you can make anything appear ridiculous if you employ the well tried and trusted rhetorical technique method of taking it ad absurdum.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you hanging your post on my name?

[/ QUOTE ] 'Cos yours was the last post - I (like many others) read the forum in flat mode so tend if making a general comment to just append it to the last post.

No nasturtiums cast in your direction at all.

W
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

[ QUOTE ]
What a ridiculous thread.



[/ QUOTE ]

No it isnt . We've got into some really interesting areas like bearing failure and motorbike steering. Much better than the usual "which anchor" or "a colregs question" /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

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I did observe changing lane could be done without touching the bars, and I could not see the head move, but that is not cast iron proof I know, but I am convinced that any movement was microscopic.

[/ QUOTE ]

have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644 There have been a number of people who have done the same thing - locked the steering solid because the argument about steering a bike has been running ever since bikes have existed

[ QUOTE ]
I do not know if anyone has ridden a racing motorbike, but I understand that they have dampers to stop unwanted handlebar movement, and yet are able to traverse hair pin bends. Yes I realise they have the power to let the back slide out, but wondered how restrictive the dampers are ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like dampers on a car, they dont prevent movement, they simply prevent large movements or oscillations - in other words tank slappers. as in http://www.metacafe.com/watch/176949/tank_slapper/
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

I swore I would not get back into this ...

But bicycle/motorbike steering is a favourite subject of mine and one of those things which is simple in principle and difficult to visualise.

You can't lock the steering on a bike and steer using lean.
Anyone who has walked a bicycle through a shopping centre steering only with one hand on the saddle knows how it works.

Just think back to your chilhood when you would dismount from your bicycle by swinging you leg over the back while keeping the other foot on the pedal.
The bike goes in a straight line although it is leaning.

Visualise a two-wheeler on flat empty ground with an imaginary line through each axle extending out on each side to infinity.

keep the bike upright and turn the steering (this would be at slow speed!) - the bike curves in a track which has a radius equal to the distance at which the two imaginary lines cross.

Lock the front wheel straight and lean the bike over while moving forward. The imaginary lines on the downside project into the ground but remain parallel. The bike continues to roll in a straight line.

unlock the front wheel while leaning.
the wheel turns in to a degree determined by the lean and the steering geometry - specifically the "caster" - the distance between the actual point of contact with the ground and the projected line where the axis of the steering head hits the ground.

The two axle lines now cross at a point underground.

The bike now curves along a circular track which is effectively described as the edge of the base of an upside down cone, the apex of which is where the radii of the two imaginary lines cross.
The radius of the curve and the depth of the apex depend on how far the bike is leaned - but the whole system hangs on the principle of caster.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

Ho how does your theory account for the fact of counter steering. Or indeed the fact that if you turn your bars to steer inwards on a bend, the bike tends to sit up and go straight on.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

Not sure what you mean by counter steering, but if you mean like a speedway bike - the physics are less to do with geometry and more to do with friction - or lack of it.

As far as steering inwards "self correcting"
you try to steer inwards too tightly by forcing the handlebars in too tight - thus putting the geometry out (the crossing of the wheel axes too high to meet at the apex of the cone) - there are two possible outcomes.
The balance of caster on the front wheel would be too far forward and would try to force the front wheel back onto the correct track for the amount of lean. (that's why bikes have caster - its a self-correcting, stable, positive feedback system) At the same time centrifugal (or as your physics teacher would have corrected you - centripetal) force would try to throw you in a straight(er) line which would neccessitate you and/or bike sitting up to readjust the balance.
Of course, if you overdo it and the bike sits back up too sharply you can get into an oscillation - ie a "tank slapper"

OR you have to lean the bike in further to get the crossover back to the apex of the new - smaller radius cone (ie smaller radius curve) to get back on track - and let's face it - that's not usually an option on a public carriageway.
 
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