Wind gen's & Marina Etiquette

Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

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If it kept you awake all night you would do exactly the same.

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ar you sure we are not talking about an excuse to explain ones' insomnia?

I find the hum of a generator quite soothing...
It is discos and loud drunken louts that keep me awake

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Do you think it is a Windgen owner vs. non-owner divide?
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

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Do you think it is a Windgen owner vs. non-owner divide?

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yes... but this is funny! A bit of a change from anchors...
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

I'm beginning to think it's a brinelling bearings vs. non-brinelling bearings divide!
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

It is clear that some people consider windgens in marinas to be a nuisance (in the legal sense). Solution: stop the noise, stop the nuisance. Easy way to do this is to tether the blades.

Problem: tethering the blades is bad for the bearings.

So who should be forced to suffer for this problem? The neighbours or the person causing the nuisance? It is no answer to say that stopping the nuisance would cause (financial) harm to the person creating the nuisance. To use a Latin legal phrase: "too bad for you".

If the person creating the nuisance wants to stop the nuisance in a different way, he should be given a reasonable opportunity to do so. If he doesn't ...
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

I am not an expert in wind generators but to avoid all this hassle can't you just cover the whole bloody thing with a big bag so the wind doesn't reach the blades therefore avoiding the whole issue of noise or bearing damage.

Mind you, the impact from your feet when walking through the cockpit to take the bag off may induce work hardening of the stainless steel pushpit and the whole flipping lot including the wind generator could fall overboard........ /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

As you say you live and learn. How long can you leave the compressors before you get a problem? Obviously depends on the level of vibration and (presumably) the quality of the lubrication present in the bearing. Is it the sort of thing that happens in a few days or a few months?
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

We would have them rotated every four to six weeks. We considered that any longer than this and evidence of brinelling would be seen.
These machines were in storage so inhibiting oil only - but lubrication is not normally critical in an angular contact bearing - and in fact there is no lubricant at the points of contact, it is squeezed out, so long as there is a film in there to stop them scoring against their cages inhibiting oil is considered OK.

Mike
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

The head and wheel bearings on my 10 year old motor bike are ball races, and have never needed replacement, despite daily use in rush hour traffic, and it being a single cylinder not a vibration free zone at all !

It sounds like you have never ridden a motor bike, let me assure you that once you are moving over say 25 mph, "steering" input is simply done by moving from side to side, not the turning of the handlebar, so the head bearings will be stationary on the move and certainly at the lights.

I find it strange that a metal centre stand, with solid frame spigots able to support 300 KG of motorbike can have "elasticity" and a thin plastic generator blade cannot.

Again I cannot see why a motorbike does not have vibration from the engine throughout the frame, some motorbikes are renoun for their vibration with the wing mirrors showing a blurred image, again these bikes do not need regular ball race replacements.

So while I don't doubt the phenomenom you describe exists, I have never experienced it (despite decades of using ball race vehicles) and I can see a number of teathered wind generators in the marina, and yet I do not recall any posts bemoaning the ball race problem.

We are not off topic by the way, one option the OP had was to tie off the generator to get a good night's sleep, nothing I have read so far persuades me that is not a bad idea.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

I have had a full bike license for 30 years.
Again - try locking off the steering on your bike and see how far you would get before you fell over - Its not well understood even by motorcyclists but balance is kept on a two-wheeler by keeping the machine under you rather than by keeping yourself over the bike - OK so most of that adjustment is done by leaning the bike slightly - but think about it, if all you were doing was leaning the bike over and the wheels stayed in a straight line the bike would still travel in a straight line.
When you lean the bike over you put pressure on the caster of the front wheel and the wheel naturally turns into the curve. by moving the steering head. It doesn't have to move far and you will not be watching to see it happen (I hope)

Regarding elasticity - you are missing the point - the bearings are NOT CLOSE COUPLED to the vibration on your bike. Whereas on the blade IS very closely connected to the bearing.

Yes wing mirrors blur - congratulations, you have discovered RESONANCE.

Who said a bike doesn't vibrate? I didn't! The fact that you have never changed a bearing is a testament to the engineers of your bike (despite using crappy ball races) and the fact that it must either be engineered with L10 lives in excess of the life of the bike OR you have never had a bike long enough to have to change a bearing OR you are just waiting to feel that nasty teetering feeling when one of your wheel bearings fails and puts a wheel out of alignment.

I don't know whether you have experienced brinelling - and neither do you - unless you take a microscope or magnifying glass to your bearing races. For all I know (or you) your bike is running on buggered bearings right now.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

Hi MikeMonty,

I understand your comments and happily bow to experience, but you advise us to remove the windgen (as someone said, that's a HELL of job!) to avoid brinelling.

If one could do this without major effort, how do we then store genny? What I mean is that my windgen is at home at present (we only fit it while off long term cruising) and is stored with the blades removed and the hub face down i.e. all the bearings are taking the 'strain' equally.

What are your thoughts on this, as I can't see any way of storing the thing WITHOUT there being weight SOMEWHERE on the bearing races. Are you saying that every four months or so, one should get hold of the thing and rotate the hub a few times, or a lot of times or .....? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Be grateful for your views.

Jerry
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

Hi Jerryat,
I pointed out somewhere along the way that I had no experience of wind gens - and so happily suggested removing the head as a precaution. You have put me right on the difficulty of that option, and for that I thank you.

"In Situ" The idea of putting a bag over the blades is excellent - it would eliminate any blade flutter and therefore vibration (and I have to assume vibration up through the mounting is negligible or else it would be unacceptable to live with).

But "In Storage" there is no problem with brinelling in as long as it is not sitting on top of your washing machine! Load distribution round the bearing is not a factor or a problem.

You might think about ensuring it is sitting on resilient material - like a bit of foam or thick packing cardboard - much as it would have been when you bought it.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

I maintain that over 25mph to switch lane, the head bearings do not move, they certainly do not move when sitting in traffic or going in a straight line.

But let's go with the argument that there is slight movement, how come the slight movement for head bearings removes any risk of damage, a teathered wind generator will have slight movement but apparantly will be damaged.

Year after year the motorbike has been independently checked for an MOT including the specific checks for free wheel movement and head bearings, and has never had an advisory, so year after year I appear to have got lucky, or the bearings are up to the job they were designed for, or they have been so affected but the damage is so slight such that the independent inspector is happy that I can continue to use them.

Resonance on a stationary motorbike with the engine running comes from where ? (hint starts with a V and ends with ibration)

Re close coupling, if I can feel the vibration of the engine through the handle bars, (even with your nice rubber isolators) then the vibration will be coming through the head bearings on their way to the handlebars, and in the example of the train and the compressor, the distance would have been measured in metres rather than centremeters, therefore a centre stand will be taking train vibration through the same route as your compressor legs, so no I don't buy the proximity argument.

And now it appears, the effect that could hurt the wind generator bearings is only visible via a microscope or magnifying glass !

We are being asked to believe that the design tolerance is expected to take into account any wind that the boat gets whilst the owner is away 0-60 mph and 100 mph gusts are not unknown, or the vibration when the engine is running because when there is no wind, but that it cannot take teathering.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

Hi Mark, yes I would take the friendly diplomatic approach if possible, whether it be directly with the boats owner or with the marina/boatyard.
I have a Rutland 913,very much quieter than some, but an irritant to others when rafted up or in a marina I imagine.
In fact, my very good friend who sailed with me only last week commented about mine irritating him. Funny, I rarely notice it at all usually when sailing. In fact I find it comforting as it's doing its work.... until that is, I lay in my bunk and the gentle wine can get to me.
I have the Marlec HRDX controller/regulator which allows me to switch the blades so they rotate at dead slow when not required and of course the regulator does this automatically when the batteries are around 14+ volts anyway.
If the thing was annoying me when the owner was absent, I would be tempted to approach it from the lee side, turn it around without getting decapitated, and rope it when it had slowed for the period required. Anything for a relaxed time on your mooring.
If the owner never finds outr then no problem for the short time it's tethered.
From all the 'air' that's resulted from your posting perhaps all boats should have a 'genny'? /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
p.s. what type of genny is causing the offence?
Actually having said all that about deplomacy, a 'stink pot' started up a petrol generator in Yarmouth last year at about 8.30a.m. and he got an awful lot of verbal abuse to which I contributed!
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

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I maintain that over 25mph to switch lane, the head bearings do not move, they certainly do not move when sitting in traffic or going in a straight line.

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So What! I don't agree with your first statement and I'm not sure I even agree that the steering remains stationary at the lights - you telling me you don't shift your weight at all?
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But let's go with the argument that there is slight movement, how come the slight movement for head bearings removes any risk of damage, a teathered wind generator will have slight movement but apparantly will be damaged.

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First woolly assumption - why assume that the tethered genny will be allowed "slight movement"? I'm not having a discussion on the basis of ill-conceived woolly assumptions that you dream up!
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Year after year the motorbike has been independently checked for an MOT including the specific checks for free wheel movement and head bearings, and has never had an advisory, so year after year I appear to have got lucky, or the bearings are up to the job they were designed for, or they have been so affected but the damage is so slight such that the independent inspector is happy that I can continue to use them.

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Again - So what! I discussed your bikes bearings in my last reply. Here's another FACT for you. Bearing races do not exhibit significant wear until they are about to fail. Your inspector only knows that the play is acceptable, he doesn't know if the bearing is close to failure - and when they do fail they do so completely - no 'slightly damaged' about it!
I can have probes fitted to a quarter million pound compressor that tell me when the white metal bearings are failing - but NOT the ball races! All you can do with the ball races is measure the vibration they produce and HOPE you notice the high vibration alarm before the bearing fails. Don't you think that anyone who buys a compressor at that price would want to know when the ball races are failing? Of course! - but it AINT POSSIBLE! ALL YOU CAN DO IS REPLACE THEM REGULARLY BEFORE THEY REACH THE END OF THEIR DESIGN LIFE.
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Resonance on a stationary motorbike with the engine running comes from where ? (hint starts with a V and ends with ibration)

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Again - So what?!
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Re close coupling, if I can feel the vibration of the engine through the handle bars, (even with your nice rubber isolators) then the vibration will be coming through the head bearings on their way to the handlebars, and in the example of the train and the compressor, the distance would have been measured in metres rather than centremeters, therefore a centre stand will be taking train vibration through the same route as your compressor legs, so no I don't buy the proximity argument.

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You just don't get the concept of "close coupled" or "direct" or "instantaneous accellerations" do you?
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And now it appears, the effect that could hurt the wind generator bearings is only visible via a microscope or magnifying glass

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Yes! and your point is?... (actually don't answer that - you HAVE no point)
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We are being asked to believe that the design tolerance is expected to take into account any wind that the boat gets whilst the owner is away 0-60 mph and 100 mph gusts are not unknown, or the vibration when the engine is running because when there is no wind, but that it cannot take teathering.

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I'm not asking you to believe anything - but I'd hate anyone to think that I had no answer for you.
I'll try one last time...
Rotating = NO BRINELLING = no problem
Stationary in a close-coupled vibrating system with high accellerations = BRINELLING = reduced bearing life

So finally - my sons favourite phrase - in answer to your (in no way troubling) doubts... "WHATEVER"
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

What sort of havoc does it play with the those who are driven to derision by the sound of wind on boats when a seagull squawks or a rower misses a sweep and the oar bangs in the rowlock...

I get the feeling many on this thread would be irritated in a padded cell, I wonder if being around boats is the right hobby for the terminally irritable, imagine the brain haemorrhage created when rain drops fall upon the skippers cabin.. aargh, or the lapping of water on the hull.... I need to lie down.

Live and let live, you will all be much happier for it. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

You've obviously never been near either a poxy Air-X or a wretched Wind Baron at full cry....

My Honda genset is whisper quiet by comparison.
 
Re: Wind gen\'s & Marina Etiquette

It sounds like you do not understand the difference between Brinelling and False Brinelling, and the underlying cause of each.

What you are describing is not Brinelling but False Brinelling.

Brinelling refers to a material surface failure caused by contact stress that exceeds the material limit. e.g. over revving or forces beyond the designed strength.

False Brinelling is caused by the vibrations on stationary bearings squeezing out the grease and causing metal to metal contact over prolonged periods.

This also affects roller bearings, and therefore cars are not immune from it. (Despite what you said).

It can be detected in bicycle head bearings (Despite what you said).

It has been detected in car wheel bearings (Despite being protected by pnematic isolators).

Therefore, bikes and motorbikes abandoned on the platform for prologned periods would eventually suffer from it (Despite what you said)

It is most prevalent in backup machinery that is not used over a long periood of time, but remains in a vibrating environment. So your compressor is only at risk if it is left dormant for long periods, it is not at risk just because it is near a train station.

Any movement which keeps the grease between the metal surfaces will remove the risk.

So going back to the original post, should you loosly tie the blade, or tie it overnight so as to get a good night's sleep, no harm will be done.
 
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