Why do cruisey types often have baggy old sails?

[Lakesailor]

Now that's brave on a thread like this! Am I allowed to say slot too open, perhaps a little too much leach tension on the main?

Ah yes. I did cover the headsail problem in the post above. With the tack too low on the forestay I couldn't get the sheet angle to tighten the leech without letting the foot go baggy. Once I raised the tack the sheeting angle was much better. I did fit longer genoa sheet tracks later on as well, but that wasn't the basic problem.
The leech on the main does look tight. It's not until you get someone to take some pics of you under sail that you spot these things. That's my excuse anyway.
However the luff tapes are flying

 

[NeilO]

For me it is probably because I don't know what performance improvement new sails would give, because I've had the same sails from when I bought the boat second hand - and they are of an unknown age and provenance but I have owned them for four seasons.

Also, I suspect that our upwind performance might have more to do with my (lack) of sail tuning skills than the sails themselves!

If you've got nothing to compare against then it is difficult to tell when they need changing. How many seasons should a set of cruising sails last anyway?

Having said that I would love to get a new suit of sails - but I have to put a pretty strong business case together to get the funding approval!

Neil

 

[Searush]

Why does it look so much better from the port side??

That's the side he ironed it.

 

[LittleSister]

It was in my dinghy sailing days I learnt to appreciate the advantage of newer sails. I used the 30 year old sails for cruising and pottering about, and saved the newer, 20 year old, ones for racing!

The sails on our little cruising boat are way past their best, but they do the job and have propelled us thousands of miles. New ones would be lovely, but money is tight, and they never get quite high enough up the priority list to justify the financial pain involved.

 

[BelleSerene]

Well, I'm probably as guilty as any. I'd say it was down to several factors. For me, it is a very simple cost-benefit analysis! A new suite of white sails will set me back perhaps £2,000, give or take a few hundred. For that, I may get perhaps 5 degrees closer to the wind. Off the wind, it will make little difference. Now, that's an important difference if you're racing - but if you're cruising, it really doesn't matter. I travel at or about hull speed in anything of a breeze anyway; I'm not going to gain significantly through the water. If it's taking too long or it's getting uncomfortable, there are no rules saying I can't run the engine - I prefer not to, but if it's a case of slogging to windward, tiring out myself and my wife, or getting there in reasonable time, then up goes the iron topsail. I need to run it an hour or so a day to charge the batteries anyway! Indeed, we may choose to sail a bit off the wind, to make a comfortable passage that isn't all that much slower. Cruisers also often choose their passages to avoid prolonged windward legs; there's almost always somewhere just as nice in an easier direction! I prefer to decide where we're going tomorrow once I've seen the forecast, so nothing is set in stone until we've set a course - and even then it is subject to change if we think it looks nice in another direction!

Yes, I'd like new sails, but the cost benefit simply doesn't work out.

I may end up deferring to greater experience here, AntarcticPilot. But I do take a different view.

That new suit of sails will give you more than your 5 degrees to windward. I'll take you faster to windward too. And because it's not baggy all the time, you won't be broaching in gusts either. In high winds you'll be better able to control yourself without silly amounts of heel and leeway, and in light airs you'll be able to keep a pace up.

The biggest difference I noticed was the last one: I could make it back to port at reasonable speed under sail in the evening light breeze. When the alternative under family pressure is to turn the motor on, that gives me real sailing time I'd otherwise be denied.

So I found it's far more than a bit more pointing: it's more sailing in the day, better speed while sailing, and a happier (because more controllable) time while doing it. That's plus points all round in my book. No?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I may end up deferring to greater experience here, AntarcticPilot. But I do take a different view.

That new suit of sails will give you more than your 5 degrees to windward. I'll take you faster to windward too. And because it's not baggy all the time, you won't be broaching in gusts either. In high winds you'll be better able to control yourself without silly amounts of heel and leeway, and in light airs you'll be able to keep a pace up.

The biggest difference I noticed was the last one: I could make it back to port at reasonable speed under sail in the evening light breeze. When the alternative under family pressure is to turn the motor on, that gives me real sailing time I'd otherwise be denied.

So I found it's far more than a bit more pointing: it's more sailing in the day, better speed while sailing, and a happier (because more controllable) time while doing it. That's plus points all round in my book. No?

I don't doubt the truth of what you say - but windward ability simply isn't that important in the kind of sailing I do. Getting the tides right will make a lot more difference, once I'm out of the Clyde and encounter the 6 knot tide gates of the West coast of Scotland. My wife and I find tacking up narrow channels hard work, so we motor. In general, I avoid being very close-hauled, not because we can't do it, but because we prefer to be comfortable and fast. If it's a choice of a destination dead to windward and one on a comfortable reach, the comfortable reach wins most of the time! If I'm close-hauled, I will be travelling slower through the water with an uncomfortable motion; easing off a few degrees may well may my VMG better, though I confess I'm simply not that interested in it. Also, my 5 degrees was probably a reasonable estimate of the difference possible with my present set of sails, which aren't THAT bad.

Usually, the only time I'm getting as close to the wind as possible is if I'm trying to round a headland without having to tack.

But it is a balance of costs and benefits. For me, £2,000 will buy a lot of comfort in other areas - areas that are important to my wife and I. Getting there a few minutes in the hour faster - and that is all it would be - isn't important to me. My windward ability is plenty to get me off a lee-shore so safety isn't an issue.

 

[Mudisox]

My old cruiser had 1974 sails and got me everywhere I wanted to go to. And then I sat in the cockpit, at anchor enjoying the peace and quiet. Maybe if I had spent lots of money on newer sails I would have had a few more minutes or even hours, sitting enjoying the view. Maybe not. They did the job.
Present sails and roller reefing Genoa, are 2005 and baggy but I have two little engines that can push me to windward faster than any VMG with sails.
I also have two dinghies for racing, and their sails cost less to replace so when I get competitive about sailing the windward dominated courses set these days I spent some extra dosh, but my wife commented that the money could have been better spent on allowing the heating to be on more often. And don't start about climate change, modern sails are made from ..........

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Now that's brave on a thread like this! Am I allowed to say slot too open, perhaps a little too much leach tension on the main?

Ah, the problem with a tight slot can be too much thrust and the inevitable uncontrolled spill. It's not so much an issue when the slot is created with floppy flappy bits which just cause a back winding phenomena. Quite funny when it happens, the back winding, not the uncontrolled spill, thats just embarrassing.

 

[Birdseye]

I've heard of such things as "cruising laminates". Do they offer a better compromise between user-friendliness and shape retention?

Disclaimer - we use our little boat for racing as well as cruising. The sails are not all brand new but if a sail is definitely past it's best I will replace it.

Yes to the laminates. Our genoa ( and we race as well as cruise) is a heavy 130% cruising laminate with a foam luff etc and I have been surprised and impressed by how well it has retained its shape and how well it works even part furled. To the point where I will rep[lace like for like when the time comes and I will switch my main over to laminate too.

 

[KellysEye]

>In the Caribbean with perfect reaching conditions for most of the time and over two seasons on most days I could count the number of boats actually sailing on the fingers of one hand .

They would be American boats, they motor upwind to the Caribbean and keep motoring. I remember one American boat that did sail everywhere but had to keep the engine on tick over because the wife didn't feel safe without it on. Everybody else sails.

 

[Black Sheep]

Ah, the problem with a tight slot can be too much thrust and the inevitable uncontrolled spill.

Yes, I've had this problem in the past.
As you say, the uncontrolled spill is somewhat embarassing. But a tight slot is definitely preferable, one just has to control the thrust a little better. Still, there's no doubting it's faster!

 

[Lakesailor]

I think you may have drifted from the intended course.

 

[harry potter]

The teak deck also needs some attention. Come on Ernie.