Why do cruisey types often have baggy old sails?

mrming

mrming

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Genuine question not intended to offend.

When I'm out sailing I often see cruising boats with baggy genoas and billowy mains with saggy leeches. Also many of the posters on here often refer to the condition of their sails as being somewhat past their best.

Now I understand cruising types take a relaxed approach to sailing and are not always in a rush. I also understand that the type of sailcloth favoured by cruisers for ease of handling is more prone to stretch, and that roller genoas can be a compromise. I've also heard, although I can't confirm, that gentlemen don't sail to windward.

However, for me, part of the art of sailing is in the set of the sails. I love to look up at a sweetly set main, and love to watch the tell tales on the jib break in the right order having endeavoured to set the car correctly for the conditions.

So it puzzles me why a lot of cruising sailors don't seem to take a similar pride.

I know all too well that sails are expensive and if that's the reason then fair enough.

I do however notice a lot of boats loaded up with the latest gadgets and otherwise kept in smart order that still have a baggy old set of rags. In this case budget is clearly not the main issue.

So my question is this. Why do some cruising sailors not rank expenditure on sails as important compared to other running costs? It seems crazy to me to have a sailing boat and not have it sailing well.

I've heard of such things as "cruising laminates". Do they offer a better compromise between user-friendliness and shape retention?

Disclaimer - we use our little boat for racing as well as cruising. The sails are not all brand new but if a sail is definitely past it's best I will replace it.
 
I don't have racing quality sails, but they are well made, and I like to set them well. It comes from having been a dinghy sailor.
 
Well, I'm probably as guilty as any. I'd say it was down to several factors. For me, it is a very simple cost-benefit analysis! A new suite of white sails will set me back perhaps £2,000, give or take a few hundred. For that, I may get perhaps 5 degrees closer to the wind. Off the wind, it will make little difference. Now, that's an important difference if you're racing - but if you're cruising, it really doesn't matter. I travel at or about hull speed in anything of a breeze anyway; I'm not going to gain significantly through the water. If it's taking too long or it's getting uncomfortable, there are no rules saying I can't run the engine - I prefer not to, but if it's a case of slogging to windward, tiring out myself and my wife, or getting there in reasonable time, then up goes the iron topsail. I need to run it an hour or so a day to charge the batteries anyway! Indeed, we may choose to sail a bit off the wind, to make a comfortable passage that isn't all that much slower. Cruisers also often choose their passages to avoid prolonged windward legs; there's almost always somewhere just as nice in an easier direction! I prefer to decide where we're going tomorrow once I've seen the forecast, so nothing is set in stone until we've set a course - and even then it is subject to change if we think it looks nice in another direction!

Yes, I'd like new sails, but the cost benefit simply doesn't work out.
 
dylanwinter said:
because on the wind 3 degrees is neither here not there

off the wind baggy is good

however, as an old racing man ..... creases drive me crazy
Click to expand...

+1 I like well cut sails and efficient sailing do they really make a difference in cruising?

You do not notice over 5-10-15+ years the loss of shape till your decide they are passed it an the money on new ones is really noticed and justified...
 
I think cruising folk care a lot more about their sails than used to be the case; however the diabolical set given by a lot of roller headsails makes me cringe.

I had a youth in racing dinghies with old sails, it was terribly frustrating so now I can supposedly afford decent sails I make sure I have them; I think this probably applies to most ex-dinghy types, the people with baggy old sails have never known any performance sailing and don't appreciate how much good sails can help passsage times, keeping off lee shores etc; now it's a turn of the key and roll away the headsail...

Having had a 30' IOR influenced boat with big headsails, I'd have loved a good quality roller setup on that ( I didn't race the Carter 30 though she'd been very successful, winning the Burnham Open in I think 1985 ) but would never dream of relying on a rolled genoa for stiff conditions, a separate storm jib is essential in my view.

With my Anderson, it beats me why anyone fits a roller on a modestly canvassed 7/8ths rig 22' boat, unless they are getting on in years or something, but the fact remains the majority have rollers.

I have always used separate jibs - and I'm quite fussy about decent sails inc mains & chutes, kites - and interestingly my chum who it has to be said is no Ben Ainslie has ditched his roller and gone separate so the lesson is there for those who wish to heed it...
 
I'm a cruiser, have never sailed a dinghy, but nonetheless enjoy sail trimming and getting the best performance that I can. I much prefer to trim sails than helm. Lucklily my wife enjoys "driving" so she steers and I trim. If she wants a break then autopilot on, usually in "steer to wind" mode. I also can't bear the bag of pants that is an over-rolled genoa in stronger winds so last year we converted to a slutter rig - inner and outer forestay with a roller on each. We have a big genoa on the outer and a high cut jib on the inner. Very pleased with the setup, great flexibility. Also a furling in mast main - but we've had vertical battens added and it certainly makes a difference. Cost of all this is totally unjustified of course but then its impossible to "justify" an cost associated with a pleasure boat as far as I can make out.
 
Small Junk rig bilge keel against a headsea.. You don't wanna know the tacking angles..

Believe me, all those 5degrees here and there from stretched sails poor rig tension slimy bottom etc really do add up

England has strong 'go/no go' tides and tidal gates and a variety of winds, i bet half the time is spent beating for most folk??
I love having ( but don't always have) beautiful flat sails..I have spare beautiful sails too on board and smaller beautiful sails and big blowsy downwind jobbies too, worth every penny..( to me)

But I ride a bicycle not a RangeRover.. To each their own.. Always the compromise eh?

Or One can bang on the diesel for a bit 'o lift I suppose ..and charge the hotwater, freezer, batteries..
 
mrming said:
Genuine question not intended to offend.



So my question is this. Why do some cruising sailors not rank expenditure on sails as important compared to other running costs? It seems crazy to me to have a sailing boat and not have it sailing well.
Click to expand...
You have essentially answered your own question in the rest of your post.

Different people have different priorities and make their own decisions about what is best for them. That does not mean they are ignorant about the impact of their decisions, but they are trying to maximise the benefits they gain for their efforts (and expenditure). That may well result in some paying less attention to the things that you obviously value highly.
 
Interesting that ex / current dinghy sailors (in this tiny sample) are more particular about their sails (I'm an ex dinghy sailor myself).

I must admit I'm fascinated by the junk rig although I've never sailed one. This may be due in a large part to reading Missee Lee, but also it just seems such an elegant concept.

Tranona - I do realise that, but it's winter, it's dark outside, and it's interesting to hear what other people get out of their particular approach to sailing.

Searush - careful - you could be seen to be asking for "handouts"! ;)
 
mrming said:
Interesting that ex / current dinghy sailors (in this tiny sample) are more particular about their sails (I'm an ex dinghy sailor myself).

I must admit I'm fascinated by the junk rig although I've never sailed one. This may be due in a large part to reading Missee Lee, but also it just seems such an elegant concept.
;)
Click to expand...

As soon as you crack the sheets a bit I think junk rig simply the most wonderful cruising rig I have yet er cruised with..

( and I have made it fly to windward too by rigging a rigid forestay and tall flat jib to get that 'slot effect'.
But I also thought I would drive the heavily laden, wee cruising boat under the sea or pull the mast out of it too, and it heeled and threw water over the cockpit.. No gain without pain!

Downwind it reels off the miles, gybing is of no consequence and there is no rigging to moan when the wind gets up, the mast feathers at the top in a gust, no foredeck work nor winches to faff about with, etc etc
( I too grew up on Ransome and Missee Lee)
 
Another dinghy sailor here, so I tend to take more of an interest in sail trim than the average cruiser. Chances are, that if going downwind for any period of time and the conditions allow, then I will fly the cruising chute or spinnaker.

However I did make do with old sails until they really were FUBAR'd, or to be precise where the cost of laundering and servicing them was starting to get to a fair percentage of a new suit. You also have to think long and hard whether it's worth spending £2000 to make an £8000 boat got 0.5kt faster too.

There's not much you can do with a roller reefing genoa...the foam pads help a bit, but I will always try to take the main in a lot first. However the one that really annoys me is when you see sails that are just are in good nick but really badly set. Upper genoa leaches motoring, over-kickered mainsails, topping lifts left on, woeful genoa sheet leads...gah!!!!
 
I share your surprise on this one. To me sails are one of the most important things on a sailing boat, so assumed would be a very high priority investment. Way above bow thrusters, TVs etc that others prefer.

And ability to point a few degrees higher when reefed could be a safety factor getting away from a lee shore (particularly if engine failed)

PS. Another ex dinghy racer
 
mrming said:
Genuine question not intended to offend.

When I'm out sailing I often see cruising boats with baggy genoas and billowy mains with saggy leeches. Also many of the posters on here often refer to the condition of their sails as being somewhat past their best.

Now I understand cruising types take a relaxed approach to sailing and are not always in a rush. I also understand that the type of sailcloth favoured by cruisers for ease of handling is more prone to stretch, and that roller genoas can be a compromise. I've also heard, although I can't confirm, that gentlemen don't sail to windward.

However, for me, part of the art of sailing is in the set of the sails. I love to look up at a sweetly set main, and love to watch the tell tales on the jib break in the right order having endeavoured to set the car correctly for the conditions.

So it puzzles me why a lot of cruising sailors don't seem to take a similar pride.

I know all too well that sails are expensive and if that's the reason then fair enough.

I do however notice a lot of boats loaded up with the latest gadgets and otherwise kept in smart order that still have a baggy old set of rags. In this case budget is clearly not the main issue.

So my question is this. Why do some cruising sailors not rank expenditure on sails as important compared to other running costs? It seems crazy to me to have a sailing boat and not have it sailing well.
Click to expand...
We use our boat for cruising, but still prefer to use sail not engine even when we have contrary wind.
So sail shape is important for us..

I have a theory on why some cruisers don't care, they don't know any better. For some it's budget, others buy a new boat with standard sails and some of these are not top quality.

I once asked a sailmaker from a large well reputed brand how he could defend making sails of such a bad quality.
"We make sails matching the price the boat builder will pay, but the interesting thing is that we get repeat sales to owners asking for original spare parts and sometimes we can sell better quality sails..."

mrming said:
I've heard of such things as "cruising laminates". Do they offer a better compromise between user-friendliness and shape retention?
Click to expand...

Both my main and headsail is made of cruising laminate and I would select the same next time.
The main sail have been used 5 seasons now and no signs of delamination or loss off shape.
We have a lazy bag so handling is easy but even without the sail would be user friendly.
 
Blueboatman said:
As soon as you crack the sheets a bit I think junk rig simply the most wonderful cruising rig I have yet er cruised with..

( and I have made it fly to windward too by rigging a rigid forestay and tall flat jib to get that 'slot effect'.
But I also thought I would drive the heavily laden, wee cruising boat under the sea or pull the mast out of it too, and it heeled and threw water over the cockpit.. No gain without pain!

Downwind it reels off the miles, gybing is of no consequence and there is no rigging to moan when the wind gets up, the mast feathers at the top in a gust, no foredeck work nor winches to faff about with, etc etc
( I too grew up on Ransome and Missee Lee)
Click to expand...

I really like the look of them too.... although stopping the water coming down the mast seems a bit of a challenge

I spent a day on Martins Junk rigged Bolger

impressive on so many counts

 
knuterikt said:
Both my main and headsail is made of cruising laminate and I would select the same next time.
The main sail have been used 5 seasons now and no signs of delamination or loss off shape.
We have a lazy bag so handling is easy but even without the sail would be user friendly.
Click to expand...

What is the cruising laminate like in terms of flexibility? Is it similar to Pentex or softer?
 
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