Why are Bavarias so unloved??

TradewindSailor said:
Bavarias had a problem with their keels a few years ago ......

As with all the modern cheap production yachts, they have bolt on keels that have an almost vertical leading edge and just a simple flange mount directly onto the hull, rather than having a stub moulding or an integral keel. They are also made of cast iron rather than lead (lead distorts on a heavy blow). The problem with this arrangement is that they are more vulnerable to grounding damage than a conventional fin or long keel with a well raked leading edge which allows the boat to drive up onto say a sand bar rather than come to a sudden stop. Just look around the marinas this winter and check for distortion in the hull at the back of the keel and for kinks in the shear line around the main bulkhead. AND yes most yachts end up hitting the bottom sometime ...... and it used not to be a problem!

However I am sure they give many people plenty of fun and space for few £. In a few years they'll be even cheaper as the secondhand market will be even more flooded with them. Unfortunately this causes the rest of the secondhand yacht values to go down with them....... I guess this is what causes most of the bad feelings.

I could go on ..... but most of you have heard it all before.
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I think the reason that Baveria owners get so upset about detrimental comments about their boats is because people make totally stupid, ignorant comments like the one above. I am really surprised no Bav owner in 96 post has challenged what was said here. Or have they seen the post as yet another childish troll?

"Bavarias had a problem with their keels a few years ago ...... "

One fell off, on a particular type of Bav after hitting a rock. Have no other boats had keel problems? Think before you reply.

"They are also made of cast iron rather than lead (lead distorts on a heavy blow)."

Both iron and lead keels are fitted to Baverias. Clearly there is little knowledge of the subject.

"Just look around the marinas this winter and check for distortion in the hull at the back of the keel and for kinks in the shear line around the main bulkhead."

What a load of bollox!

"In a few years they'll be even cheaper as the secondhand market will be even more flooded with them"

Mass market Baverias have been around about 15 years now, how long before the "flood" start, Eh?

It's uninformed ignorant prejudice like this, completely devoid of facts, that will wind up Bav owners, it would certainly wind me up!

I do not own a Baveria, if it suited me to do so I would not hesitate to buy one. I do though sail a 1999 Baveria 36 in the South of France that belongs to a friend. I'm not sure if its just bad planning on our part but on just about every occasion we sail her we at some stage we have winds up to nearly 40 knts. But I have never felt unsafe.

There are things that are far from perfect on Baverias, but then show me a perfect boat.

The post by ubergeekian just about sums the situation up perfectly. The hierarchy and snobbery that surrounds some areas of boat ownership is unbelievable.
 
Robin, you speak of your Sun Legende in the past tense, you say our "last boat", do mean last boat, or current boat? Just curious.
 
Anything cheap and popular generates disdain – it's a relic of the English class system. In addition, intuitive perception is absorbed, osmosis-like, and governs how we judge a product.

Perhaps it is unfair to resurrect an old chestnut, but here goes.

For many years I didn't distinguish Bavaria from any other of the mass-produced boats. I recognised that yacht design had moved on and by clever marketing focused on the desire for larger, family-oriented cruisers. I had no doubts that they admirably catered for that volume market – I just wasn't a part of it.

Then, in 2005 when cruising the Croatian coast, I was close to the now legendary tragedy of the Bavaria Match 42 incident where the keel was lost and in which a crew-member drowned. Suddenly the marque Bavaria was highlighted in my mind and, as practically a neighbour of the accident, I researched everything about it on the Internet. The Hungarian club that had chartered the team of yachts posted a mass of details and photos and I could hardly believe what they revealed of the keel-hull joints, not of just the stricken yacht but of many other Bavaria Match yachts in the regatta.

But what was even more unbelievable was the damage limitation press release from Bavaria that claimed the keel loss was due to hitting a rock, long before any evidence was available. This was subsequently and successfully refuted and a report by Zucker & Partners, a German marine surveyor, clearly blamed the design and construction of the boat. Activity to recall and modify hundreds of Match 38 and 42 yachts then began all over the world, with practically no publicity whatsoever.

I am sure that all other versions of Bavaria yachts are properly made and seaworthy, that it was just that particular model at that particular time that was faulty. But, however hard I tried, I could not separate the product from the despicable knee-jerk reaction of Bavaria Yachtbau GmbH to the accident and, as I wrote above, perception is important and I have since been prejudiced against Bavaria ever since – irrational I know, but that is human nature.

Incidentally, before writing this I again did a Google search on the subject – all my old links turn up 404 errors, even the survey report is no longer available. Just a few of the Hungarian and German yacht magazine articles remain, here and here, plus a multiple-page thread from a forum of yacht designers, here. Another forum thread with the Bavaria press release is here.
 
galadriel said:
Robin, you speak of your Sun Legende in the past tense, you say our "last boat", do mean last boat, or current boat? Just curious.
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We waved a very sad goodbye to our Sun Legende last month as she left with her new owners to go to Le Havre. BTW they had never sailed her before but she did the 110 miles Poole to Le Havre at an average 7.25kts all sailed, all in the dark (19th December, close to shortest day), they left us with ice on the decks and had winds over 35kts for some time mid-Channel.

Later this year depending on lots of things like actually retiring and selling up everything here, we are moving to the USA to live aboard and cruise a trawler style displacement powerboat, based in southern Chesapeake area of Virginia. That is of course if UKBA ever allow us to leave.
 
Robin

The very best of luck. I do hope that your crossing over to the dark side;) does not mean we will see less of you on this forum.
 
Guapa said:
That's because one of the previous Bav threads turned into a Bav owners love-in. Gotta take turns :p

Bav lovers & Bav bashers: never the twain shall meet (or at least as little as possible) :rolleyes:
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More of a case of Bav lovers (owners) vers people who know nothing of Bav's

Its endemic on these forums, people talking with authority when they know nothing of the subject, experts in anecdotal hearsay.
 
Barnac1e said:
Anything cheap and popular generates disdain – it's a relic of the English class system. In addition, intuitive perception is absorbed, osmosis-like, and governs how we judge a product.

Perhaps it is unfair to resurrect an old chestnut, but here goes.

For many years I didn't distinguish Bavaria from any other of the mass-produced boats. I recognised that yacht design had moved on and by clever marketing focused on the desire for larger, family-oriented cruisers. I had no doubts that they admirably catered for that volume market – I just wasn't a part of it.

Then, in 2005 when cruising the Croatian coast, I was close to the now legendary tragedy of the Bavaria Match 42 incident where the keel was lost and in which a crew-member drowned. Suddenly the marque Bavaria was highlighted in my mind and, as practically a neighbour of the accident, I researched everything about it on the Internet. The Hungarian club that had chartered the team of yachts posted a mass of details and photos and I could hardly believe what they revealed of the keel-hull joints, not of just the stricken yacht but of many other Bavaria Match yachts in the regatta.

But what was even more unbelievable was the damage limitation press release from Bavaria that claimed the keel loss was due to hitting a rock, long before any evidence was available. This was subsequently and successfully refuted and a report by Zucker & Partners, a German marine surveyor, clearly blamed the design and construction of the boat. Activity to recall and modify hundreds of Match 38 and 42 yachts then began all over the world, with practically no publicity whatsoever.

I am sure that all other versions of Bavaria yachts are properly made and seaworthy, that it was just that particular model at that particular time that was faulty. But, however hard I tried, I could not separate the product from the despicable knee-jerk reaction of Bavaria Yachtbau GmbH to the accident and, as I wrote above, perception is important and I have since been prejudiced against Bavaria ever since – irrational I know, but that is human nature.

Incidentally, before writing this I again did a Google search on the subject – all my old links turn up 404 errors, even the survey report is no longer available. Just a few of the Hungarian and German yacht magazine articles remain, here and here, plus a multiple-page thread from a forum of yacht designers, here. Another forum thread with the Bavaria press release is here.
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The bold type statement for me says it all. You know what you believe to be **** but still maintain the view with NO JUSTIFICATION.

Thats like my fear of earwigs, I know they dont crawl into my ear and eat my brain but they do. You see what I mean


Regards


Rab
 
Barnac1e said:
Anything cheap and popular generates disdain – it's a relic of the English class system. In addition, intuitive perception is absorbed, osmosis-like, and governs how we judge a product.

Perhaps it is unfair to resurrect an old chestnut, but here goes.

For many years I didn't distinguish Bavaria from any other of the mass-produced boats. I recognised that yacht design had moved on and by clever marketing focused on the desire for larger, family-oriented cruisers. I had no doubts that they admirably catered for that volume market – I just wasn't a part of it.

Then, in 2005 when cruising the Croatian coast, I was close to the now legendary tragedy of the Bavaria Match 42 incident where the keel was lost and in which a crew-member drowned. Suddenly the marque Bavaria was highlighted in my mind and, as practically a neighbour of the accident, I researched everything about it on the Internet. The Hungarian club that had chartered the team of yachts posted a mass of details and photos and I could hardly believe what they revealed of the keel-hull joints, not of just the stricken yacht but of many other Bavaria Match yachts in the regatta.

But what was even more unbelievable was the damage limitation press release from Bavaria that claimed the keel loss was due to hitting a rock, long before any evidence was available. This was subsequently and successfully refuted and a report by Zucker & Partners, a German marine surveyor, clearly blamed the design and construction of the boat. Activity to recall and modify hundreds of Match 38 and 42 yachts then began all over the world, with practically no publicity whatsoever.

I am sure that all other versions of Bavaria yachts are properly made and seaworthy, that it was just that particular model at that particular time that was faulty. But, however hard I tried, I could not separate the product from the despicable knee-jerk reaction of Bavaria Yachtbau GmbH to the accident and, as I wrote above, perception is important and I have since been prejudiced against Bavaria ever since – irrational I know, but that is human nature.

Incidentally, before writing this I again did a Google search on the subject – all my old links turn up 404 errors, even the survey report is no longer available. Just a few of the Hungarian and German yacht magazine articles remain, here and here, plus a multiple-page thread from a forum of yacht designers, here. Another forum thread with the Bavaria press release is here.
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Good post .... and good research. Anyone reading the designers forum couldn't help but to be dismayed by Bavaria's actions and remember their failures in design, especially when it cost a life in this instance.

Just pulling a couple of quotes down :

" The Bavaria Problem does seem to be global
I know from my experience and where i work that there has been alot of problems with the keels over here (Australia) 1 match 42 was doing a 2 day ocean race in light conditions and was slipped to have her keel fixed same with the Match 38 that went to hobart she was taking in water through the keel joints when she arrived.... Its all hush hush over here but trust me i see alot of them being reslipped with alot of problems.. I have not read the article yet but they have done a press release in the latest Yachting World magazine.

I guess alot of people want cheaper boats and it just goes to show that you get what you pay for....."

Another

"I have very limited experience with Bravaria built boats. But of the Bravarias that I have inspected I must say in two words or less-Pretty Cheesie. One of the boats imparticular, always "pulled to one side" according to the owner, everyone told him to let the traveler down, just oweing the problem to the owners inexperience. I saw the boat out of the water and noticed that the rudder's axis of rotation was out of plane with the centerline-By alot-We measured everything up and found that the top bearing was miss place by 1-3/4" Transversly Unbelivable I know!! But what was more scary was that the bearing was correctly placed in the deck mold ( pretty nice self alining bearing for this type of boat by the way) I can't imagine what a SH-T Fight it must have been to wrestle this deck on. What does this have to do with keels falling off, Well I'd say that Bravaria has a serious Quality Control Issue. If you examine the photos of the 42 Match fleet you will find some boats with Backing plates and large washers, some without backing plates, some without washers. The feeling I get is that things from the drawing board are not getting out the door with the finshed product, and in the case of the "Kiel" somebody died because of it.
"

Okay some of you will say this is old news ....... it's 2005 news ...... not really that long ago is it?

A couple of people on this thread have attempted to trash what I've had to say. Do your own research, be advised by designers and surveyors, and make your own mind up.

...... enough said.
 
This thread makes me think of another boat builder who built a boat that cost hundreds of lives, in fact they built loads of boats that sunk and costs thousands of lives yet no one would dare say they build bad boats

HARLAND n WOLFE in Belfast........... lol they built the TITANIC !!!!!


Makes you think though,,,,,,, I dont own a BAVARIA and dont know enough about their build quality etc etc.

However, I can spot fundamentalists people who in spite of new evidence hang on to their own belief system regardless. They will not be swayed, now ask yourself this ARE YOU ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE?

Rab
 
MARGETTS said:
Hi John,

I bow to your greater experience, however I could note the following points after owning a bav 34 for the last 9 years and using it a great including sail training for a time.

The original Elvestrom sails are just too full and designed for light wind sailing. With them I found the optimum reefing speeds of 18, 23 and 28 knots to keep good control of the boat. You also needed a lot of backstay going upwind and obviously when you reefed the headsail it was a bag of the proverbial

I have replaced the sails with Crusader sails about 3 years ago and it is a different boat.

If the wind isnt too gusty we can now leave the first reef until about 22-23 knots ( although I still tend to reef a bit earlier so as not to overpower ). Indeed I had a total novice broad reaching with full sail at 23 knots apparent and going straight as a die, while other boats around us were steering some very dodgy courses. A larger Moody which was overtaking was really struggling to stay clear and called for water. My novice just turned right a bit and let him pass.

With one reef in, averaging 20 with gusts to 30 are still a bit of a problem but more manageable. With 2 reefs and the same winds we average a little slower in the lulls but no drama upto 30 knots gusts.

Not as comfortable in a seeway as the rassys and such like, but I have no intention of changing mine.

Regards
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You might have a point as my experience of sailing Bavarias has nearly always been on Sea-School boats where the sails were not in the prime of their life. If the new sails are cut a little full, then its no wonder that my experience is what it is.

I would be very interested to sail a Bav 34 with new sails and am quite prepared to take back all I have said. (I also emphasise that my comments probably apply equally to several other modern fat bottomed boats.)

I still go sailing on Bavarias, but I know that the way that they (and other modern boats) sometimes behave isn't the way it has to be.
 
john_morris_uk said:
You might have a point as my experience of sailing Bavarias has nearly always been on Sea-School boats where the sails were not in the prime of their life. If the new sails are cut a little full, then its no wonder that my experience is what it is.

I would be very interested to sail a Bav 34 with new sails and am quite prepared to take back all I have said. (I also emphasise that my comments probably apply equally to several other modern fat bottomed boats.)

I still go sailing on Bavarias, but I know that the way that they (and other modern boats) sometimes behave isn't the way it has to be.
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One of the biggest disservices Bavaria do themselves is to supply their boats (they are not alone incidentally) with such cheap crappy sails, a season of sails and all the fill is knocked out of the dacron cross cuts, charter and school boats I'm sure just carry on, however baggy they are.

The Bav 36 I sail in the SoF has cruiser laminate sails, you can trim and flatten them beautifully. Bav, along with other manufactures would do well to supply their boats with a no sails option, let the buyer purchase the sails he wants.
 
Bosun Higgs said:
You are a sociologist / sociology student - you just have to be with comments like that! :eek::eek::eek:

By the way, it's capital not capitol, unless you are a Congressman or the like.
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Hahaha ..... close... Political science on the parchment..... sort of a mishmash of most of the Social sciences... A lot of History, 2 years of commerce, economics, Sociology... you get the point...

Never was one for spelling mind... but I think there is a discussion about that somewere....

I think its very intersting how on the other side they are pooh-poohing the idea that sailing is exclusive... but then proving the very point right here...:D
 
photodog said:
But then a whole batch of Starlight 35's had gelcoat failure... and didnt the Centaurs have a bunch of rudder failures as well??
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Wrong. There were 6 Starlights who's hulls were badly filled with foam round about 2000 by a new subcontractor and as a result they developed a hungry dog look. Caused Bowman to go bust. Interestingly two of the boats had the outer hull removed, the foam stripped and the whole lot re-assembled under supervison to make good boats. God only knows what that cost.

Don't know about Centaur rudder problems but certainly Westerley had problems on all its models at that time with the bilge keels leaking.

Moody have had problems too, and Benny had a major issue with duff gelcoats and osmosis, Hanse have had rudder problems, Bav the well known keel problem plus other. So what? If your Merc breaks down it doesnt suddenly become a Renault.
 
Bosun Higgs said:
Moody have had problems too, and Benny had a major issue with duff gelcoats and osmosis, Hanse have had rudder problems, Bav the well known keel problem plus other. So what? If your Merc breaks down it doesnt suddenly become a Renault.
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I think thats the same point I was trying to make!

If there is a builder out there who has not had any issues.... well good luck to them!:D
 
Just to add a little bit to the "rounding up" bit. Good sails (not the original) make a world of difference. Also having in mast furling enables one to balance the sail area better.

The new sails on my 37 improved the performance all round.
 
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