MapisM
Well-Known Member
Accepted, but I'd still have charts and a log track up to the last known position, plus obviously the good old compass.
Can't see what else paper has to offer...
Who still uses paper charts as their primary navigation tool?
Can't see what else paper has to offer...
Nick_H
Well-Known Member
I'm definitely in the "Life's too short" camp. I have a plotter, back up fixed GPS, hand held GPS, and Navionics app on the iphone, so realistically i'm only going to lose my position if the satellites go down.
In such an event the plotter alarm tells me immediately that it has no fix, but still shows me where I was a few seconds before, so I can dig out the paper chart and use dead reckoning from there. I'd have gained nothing by painstakingly marking my position on a paper chart for years on end waiting for this rare occurrence.
I also don't bother putting routes into the plotter, but then we often haven't decided where we're going until we're outside the marina.
In such an event the plotter alarm tells me immediately that it has no fix, but still shows me where I was a few seconds before, so I can dig out the paper chart and use dead reckoning from there. I'd have gained nothing by painstakingly marking my position on a paper chart for years on end waiting for this rare occurrence.
I also don't bother putting routes into the plotter, but then we often haven't decided where we're going until we're outside the marina.
jfm
Well-Known Member
I know you weren't being deliberately rude or picking a fight
)) but imho it is somewhat patronising to hint that those who like and use electronics as primary nav tool cannot do paper and astro. There are lots of sailors incl MapisM who are very expert in paper+pencil+stars nav and could easily switch into that mode when needed or desired. Kind of hinting that they might be incapable of that just because they express a preference for electronic nav in normal cruising is a bit patronising imho
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
I'm not so sure about that. I took my boat out for a spin last Monday out of the Italian marina in which it is currently sitting. I was too idle to get a paper chart out to take up to the flybridge and I thought I'd just rely on the plotter. So we zoomed out of the fairway at 25kts and all of a sudden, the GPS lost it's fix and it didn't get a fix again for a couple of minutes; no idea why because it worked fine after that. When the GPS did get a fix, I found that we were very close to shallow water and I slightly s**t myself.
The point is this really. If when you lose the fix or your plotter goes blank, you stop the boat immediately, get your paper chart out and plot your position, then fine. But most of us aren't going to do that; we're going to carry on for a bit hoping that the GPS comes back to life and by the time it does or by the time we do actually get the paper charts out, we may well be in danger. Also, with all due respect to Mapism, I don't think he is a relevant comparison. He's plodding along at 8kts or whatever and it's going to take him an awful lot longer to get into danger than us at 25kts. Also he can far more easily plot a position at sea on a paper chart in his big stable tub than we can in our lightweight plastic crotch rockets. For these reasons, even if you do rely on your plotter as the primary nav tool, IMHO it's always better to have a decent paper chart to hand and know where you are on it
AdeOlly
Well-Known Member
Had exactly the same thing happen in the Solent a few weekends back. I first thought it was me doing something wrong as still getting to grips with the oddities of Raymrine RL kit, but the fix came back of its own accord a few minutes later. This happened in the 'solar storm' period so maybe it was that..... Whatever the cause I think it emaphaises the need to carry charts and also to always have a pen and paper handy at the helm.
On the subject of flying charts, I have one whizz out of the hardtop roof last year round bt St Catherine's Point. Boathook retrieval method failed; SWMBO not keen on taking a swim.
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
My paper charts are also digitised and available at the push of a button on the plotter. So, for me, chart accuracy isnt a reason to keep paper charts. And like all others on here, I have a number of backup options before I resort to paper chart. Fixing your position on any chart, be it paper or electronic is the key. Manually plotting from a hand held GPS (which I keep in the grab bag) for instance would be significantly more accurate than resorting to a compass. That doesnt mean that we all couldnt use a compass - it just means that there are other better electronic options in the middle.
Also, I dont think anyone has pointed out that it's easier to keep electronic charts up to date than paper ones.
A similar argument was made to me when someone asked how I would calculate the tide height if my trusty "Belfield" electronic tide planner failed. The implication was that the almanac was more relieble. My answer was that we still need basic data to get our answer and either of these examples could fall overboard or be out of date but the Belfield software was getting on for a quarter of the price and way quicker to use.
kcrane
Well-Known Member
+3
I have the paper charts, including the waterproof folio next to the helm, but I can't remember when I last used them other than to show a guest where we where.
Truth be told we must be out of sight of land (incl channel crossings) for only about 10% of the time. When I read these threads I wonder what journeys it is that people are doing? Are others regularly crossing large distances in hazardous waters which are new to them? Most of the time, maybe 80%, I'm in known coastal waters that we've plodded back and forth through dozens of times. That isn't to say I'm complacent - I follow where we are on the plotter all of the time - but there is nothing about the situation that would be improved by putting a little pencil cross on a paper chart every few minutes. At 30knts I'd be wasting my time marking a chart every 30mins.
If the plotter failed we'd have a conversation that went:
"Oh, bugger, it's stopped"
"Let's go into Lymington and have a beer while they fix it"
"Where is Lymington?"
"Over there, you can see the masts, it's about 2 miles"
"Oh yes, so it is"
alternatively
"Oh, bugger, it's stopped"
"Let's go into Poole and have a beer while they fix it"
"Where is Poole?"
"Over there, you can see the entrance, it's about 3 miles"
"Oh yes, so it is"
or
"Oh, bugger, it's stopped"
"Let's go into Weymouth and have a beer while they fix it"
"Where is Weymouth?"
"Back there, we only left 20mins ago"
"Oh yes, so it is"
repeat 99 times till you get to
"Oh, bugger, it's stopped"
"Oh dear, there is no land in sight"
"Let's continue due south using the compass, after all we are in deep water and there is nothing within 20 miles"
"Shall I get the paper chart and the GPS or one of the IPads with Navionics?"
"Either, we are only going to go into Cherbourg and have a beer while they fix it"
"OK, sounds good"
When channel crossing TBH I do enter a route, starting from a waypoint at the Needles (which is always in the plotter) and finishing where I need to start piloting, say a couple of miles off Cherbourg or Alderney. If it is St Vaast or St Peter Port I'd have an extra couple of waypoints. I mostly use them to give me ETA's etc. I take it jfm and MAPISM do the same, but they enter each leg as they go as simple GoTo's.
oceanfroggie
Well-Known Member
+1
Sometimes I like to use paper for big picture planning, or for detail of a new area we are about to explore, be primary navigation is electronic. On some long solo passages (ie >120nm) I sometimes take bearings and pencil plot just for fun and to compare with the Garmin. Helps kill the time when I'm not reading a book.
Have a HH in the grap bag as backup, and various iOS devices (ie phone + tablet). I don't bring laptop on boat anymore. Post tablet, I rarely use PC anymore.kcrane
Well-Known Member
+1 again
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Well yes actually. Partly by accident, we've been a bit nomadic during our time in the Med and we are regularly cruising unfamiliar waters and things have a habit of going wrong if you don't pay attention. Apart from the incident above, last season we actually cruised to the wrong island because I thought I recognised it, only I didn't! In my defence, there are more than 1000 islands off the Croatian coast so it's easy to cock up. Yup, if you're tramping up and down the Solent every weekend to Yarmouth you don't need a plotter or charts but as soon as you get into slightly unfamiliar waters, it's prudent to take care
kcrane
Well-Known Member
Don't disagree and will for example study the charts around Jersey when we move down there, cos that is easier on paper than the plotter. I'll also be doubly careful as there are far more hazards than the Solent.
I wasn't looking for the one person who at the moment happens to be spending time in new and hazardous waters, but to ask if the majority of people are doing that and therefore feel genuinely at risk if the plotter or GPS failed?
The point being that I suspect most of us, most of the time, are not at any serious risk if the plotter fails and so the question "do you use electronics or paper" is not an issue of safety 99% of the time, just preference.
The likelihood of both being somewhere new (which isn't very often) and the plotter failing (for me so far that's never in over 10 years) is so small I don't worry about it. However the effort to have a backup, in case that very small risk came about, is also so small that in fact I have several of them.
Nick_H
Well-Known Member
I don't see why. If we lose fix, we still have the electronic chart in front of us on the plotter, and we know where we were, how fast we were going and in what direction, at the time we lost the fix, so we can look to see what hazards are ahead, and allow a suitably large margin for the fact that we don't know exactly where we are, only a rough idea mentally based on our course and speed.
volvopaul
Well-Known Member
The last time I saw a paper chart was on the toilet wall in a pub at itchenor.
Kilter
Well-Known Member
aquapower
Well-Known Member
I was heading for Lymington from the west in the dark last summer and just before the needles channel the E120 went wrong, I was grateful of the paper chart that night
Searush
Well-Known Member
Paper charts give me a much better overview & in a plastic cover are impervious to rain & spray & easy to see in bright sunlight.
Plotter is handy for a constant fix & shows actual CMG permanently so I can see how the current/ leeway etc are affecting my course. Tides close to (sometimes above) my sailing speeds can significantly affect CMG vs course steered.
For pottering around waters I know well, I use paper charts & eyeball pilotage, for sneaking in & out of the rocks around the Swellies at slack water or entering the Skerries Lagoon I like to have the plotter right in front of the helm on a VERY BIG scale.
So it's horses for courses for me.
Plotter is handy for a constant fix & shows actual CMG permanently so I can see how the current/ leeway etc are affecting my course. Tides close to (sometimes above) my sailing speeds can significantly affect CMG vs course steered.
For pottering around waters I know well, I use paper charts & eyeball pilotage, for sneaking in & out of the rocks around the Swellies at slack water or entering the Skerries Lagoon I like to have the plotter right in front of the helm on a VERY BIG scale.
So it's horses for courses for me.
rbcoomer
Well-Known Member
Amother one for paper...
Ironically, for someone who's worked in IT for 30 years - paper charts only so far!
Not because of lack of confidence in the electronics, but being in a small vessel and a newbie (just about to start 3rd season) I felt it wise to learn and understand the charts first.
We have also had no chartplotter up to now as there were more important 'start-up' costs like all the little hidden extras - VHF, auxiliary outboard, lifejackets etc etc.
With the planned move up to 21' and a view to going further however, I invested in an Elite 5 which I will port between the boats (2 installs, 1 head unit) so this year will be a bit easier I hope. (Anything's better than trying to read a 3' wide chart in a 14' Fletcher at 20kts!
)
The only issue I have remaining now is coughing up the £170 needed for that little chip - AKA Navionics XG28...
Ironically, for someone who's worked in IT for 30 years - paper charts only so far!
Not because of lack of confidence in the electronics, but being in a small vessel and a newbie (just about to start 3rd season) I felt it wise to learn and understand the charts first.
We have also had no chartplotter up to now as there were more important 'start-up' costs like all the little hidden extras - VHF, auxiliary outboard, lifejackets etc etc.
With the planned move up to 21' and a view to going further however, I invested in an Elite 5 which I will port between the boats (2 installs, 1 head unit) so this year will be a bit easier I hope. (Anything's better than trying to read a 3' wide chart in a 14' Fletcher at 20kts!
)The only issue I have remaining now is coughing up the £170 needed for that little chip - AKA Navionics XG28...
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Well, that's an excellent reason indeed for using paper chart, if I've ever seen one!
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your trust J, but re. the stars bit, I must admit that if and when I should rely only on celestial navigation, I'd be a tad nervous...
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Mmm... Did the plotter just loose the fix, or it went belly up completely?
Because if the first, and assuming that you got an alarm when the fix was lost, it should have been easy to look at where you were going...
And by cruising a couple of mins at 25 kts (assuming that you didn't change your COG), you made less than 1nm.
Can't see why you shouldn't have expected those shallow waters, even without the fix.
Besides, what would have been exactly the benefit of having paper charts handy on your f/b, in that situation?
