Who said "Gentlemen don't sail to windward"? And why?

[dancrane]

It seems an odd one to me. Presumably in early days when possibly a majority of yachts really were often largely unable to make useful speed to windward, the laborious and unrewarding business of making endless flat tacks for minimal benefit might have had a desperate air about it, suggestive of clock-watching commercial captains, determined to get a cargo ashore to market...very ungentlemanly...

...but for the memory of that principal to be dropped in jokily by amateurs to one another, seems curious, since surely the business of driving a boat upwind in good weather is one of the most rewarding aspects, and the essence of why we do what we do?

If we were to decide that we're too rich in leisure-time and the appetite for ease, to bother doing anything as hard as beating, we'd presumably be like Thomas Crown...gliding across several states before calling up the private jet to take us home, while an underling takes care of bringing the glider back.

I'm not sure I think that's gentlemanly. Seems impotent and rather unfortunate to me. Do gentlemen only cycle downhill, too?

Or was the point that a gentleman would be so free to do as he pleased, that he could always sail in the direction the wind was blowing, and could easily wait as long as it took for the wind to change and blow him home?

I've no idea why I started this thread, but I'll be interested to know what others think.

 

[davidej]

I have heard it attributed to Archie White - a renowned artist and East Coast sailor.

He is the father of a couple of our friends

 

[dom]

Do gentlemen only cycle downhill, too?

For me nothing beats (OK terrible pun) bashing to windward in a F4/5, but with two caveats:

1. Modern boat with modern foils
2. Decent sails and an appropriate jib, not some half furled pregnant elephant job.

Whatever others may think about sailing to windward, I'd like to nominate the above for quote of the week award!

 

[Eyore]

Battering to windward is all very well racing round the cans, but when cruising out at sea in any nasty wind/sea/tidal conditions, the rewarding aspect of driving starts to lose its appeal. Cooking ,sleeping and using the heads becomes a trial of endurance, cracking off a few degrees if you have the sea room makes life so much more bearable and also bear in mind many cruising couples like me/us are at an age where we don't need to prove anything to anyone.

 

[davidej]

Don't forget that in the days that this comment was allegedly made, yachts were long keel, gaff rigged, cotton sails etc.

Not a good recipe for windward sailing - probably couldn't sail better than 60 degrees to the wind.

 

[lw395]

Don't forget that in the days that this comment was allegedly made, yachts were long keel, gaff rigged, cotton sails etc.

Not a good recipe for windward sailing.

It's still where races are won and lost.
And a big gaffer sailed well can go very nicely to windward.

I think the saying has two connotations.
1) Sailing to windward is where you let the professional skipper do his job of winning the race, downhill is playtime for the amateurs.
2) Tactical racing to windward is no place to be a gentleman, it's combat.

 

[AHoy2]

Battering to windward is all very well racing round the cans, but when cruising out at sea in any nasty wind/sea/tidal conditions, the rewarding aspect of driving starts to lose its appeal. Cooking ,sleeping and using the heads becomes a trial of endurance, .....

+1

 

[AndrewfromFal]

I'm not sure I think that's gentlemanly. Seems impotent and rather unfortunate to me. Do gentlemen only cycle downhill, too?

It's always struck me as a meaningless phrase spouted, more often than not by the sort of seasoned pub bores whose boats never leave their moorings but claim expertise in every aspect of sailing (aside from sailing to windward). It's a real bete noir for me and my response is normally something witheringly sarcastic like 'Oh how I pity anyone who lives on a lee shore. They must be knee deep in the corpses of these gentlemen'.

 

[jdc]

...I'm not sure I think that's gentlemanly. Seems impotent and rather unfortunate to me...

Spot on! But remember that people who profess themselves to be gentlemen invariably aren't.

 

[LadyInBed]

- probably couldn't sail better than 60 degrees to the wind.

I can't!

 

[Gerry]

Battering to windward is all very well racing round the cans, but when cruising out at sea in any nasty wind/sea/tidal conditions, the rewarding aspect of driving starts to lose its appeal. Cooking ,sleeping and using the heads becomes a trial of endurance, cracking off a few degrees if you have the sea room makes life so much more bearable and also bear in mind many cruising couples like me/us are at an age where we don't need to prove anything to anyone.

+1 fine for a stimulating hour or so but not so great after two weeks of it!

 

[RupertW]

+1 fine for a stimulating hour or so but not so great after two weeks of it!

Exactly - fun for a day sail and to find out what the boat is like in a blow, but when on a cruise which isn't time limited then I like being able to say, "Wind against us until Tuesday so lets go the other way or stick with the tarvernas and doing the odd jobs"

"Gentlemen" in this context I think was a snobby way of saying those who don't have to work for a living.

 

[smut]

I am happy to sail upwind if I can do it all on one tack... but beating up a narrow waterway or between sandbanks... starting to get a bit much like hard work

 

[Romeo]

It is certainly more gentlemanly to wait in port for a windshift, or to change your destination, than to reach for the engine.

If gentlemen want to go somewhere under engine they will generally have their man bring round the Bentley.

 

[Daedelus]

Purely personally when faced with a Westerly 5 gusting 6, we abandoned the proposed West Country cruise and went to Brighton, got there quite quickly too.

Then over to Fecamp and round that way.

Much pleasanter with boat only slightly heeled and not bashing into waves for far less progress in the time.

 

[ronsurf]

What is this 'sailing to windward' you people speak of?

 

[capnsensible]

What is this 'sailing to windward' you people speak of?

Its what Ive got to spend all day next Monday doing to get out of the Gib Straits.

 

[Melleman]

I said....

Because you have female company that think listing equals instent death

 

[KellysEye]

If gentlemen only sail downwind presumably they have to get a taxi back or does one have a chauffer ;-)

 

[JumbleDuck]

..but for the memory of that principal to be dropped in jokily by amateurs to one another, seems curious, since surely the business of driving a boat upwind in good weather is one of the most rewarding aspects, and the essence of why we do what we do?

It's all very well for a bit, but I much prefer a relaxed downwind or crosswind trip than all that tacking, bucketing around and so on. The essence of what I do is keeping vaguely on course on a nice day with one hand on the tiller and the other holding a good book. Other people are, of course, more than welcome to have and enjoy their own essences.

Do gentlemen only cycle downhill, too?

They ski.

It's always struck me as a meaningless phrase spouted, more often than not by the sort of seasoned pub bores whose boats never leave their moorings but claim expertise in every aspect of sailing (aside from sailing to windward). It's a real bete noir for me and my response is normally something witheringly sarcastic like 'Oh how I pity anyone who lives on a lee shore. They must be knee deep in the corpses of these gentlemen'.

No, but tell us how you really feel. Incidentally, the wind generally shifts if you wait a bit. Works for me.