Who or What should I believe?

Bergman

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Oh really this is complete nonsense.

Never mind the waiting lists which everyone knows are "managed" into fitting whatever is required of them.

What about the 5000 people a year killed by the NHS by a combination of MRSA and negligence.

A recent case where a baby was badly injured during her birth did not receive any form of compensation for more than 9 years, and then only after High Court settlement with substantial legal fees and costs - paid by guess who - the taxpayer

Why do we need the 3rd largest employer in the world to minister to the needs of a population of 60M

Why does a friend of mine make such a good living from transporting people to India for routine operations if the NHS is so good.

As for Iraq if you knew as much as you like to think you do you would have mentioned that the decision to send troops to Iraq was an executive decision taken by the Government. It was not a decision that was or needed to be taken by a parliamentary vote.

That is always the case - Perhaps you remember the Falklands War when Maggie sent the task force. It too was a Government decision which was subsequently approved by a parliamentary vote which Labour supported, just the same as the Tories supported the action of troops in Iraq.

You seem to wish to ignore the point that HM loyal opposition will always support troops in action they have to otherwise not loyal.

It most certainly is pinned on Labour, only Labour and nothing but Labour. As with so much else they may try to lie and cheat their way out of responsibility and there seems to be an endless supply of gullible fools around to help them.

You know the more I hear from supporter of this shambles of a Government the more I am reminded of the lines by Rudyard Kipling:

"If you bear to hear the truth you've spoken
twisted by knaves to form a trap for fools"

He must have had Blair in mind
 

Bergman

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Oh really this is complete nonsense.

Never mind the waiting lists which everyone knows are "managed" into fitting whatever is required of them.

What about the 5000 people a year killed by the NHS by a combination of MRSA and negligence.

A recent case where a baby was badly injured during her birth did not receive any form of compensation for more than 9 years, and then only after High Court settlement with substantial legal fees and costs - paid by guess who - the taxpayer

Why do we need the 3rd largest employer in the world to minister to the needs of a population of 60M

Why does a friend of mine make such a good living from transporting people to India for routine operations if the NHS is so good.

As for Iraq if you knew as much as you like to think you do you would have mentioned that the decision to send troops to Iraq was an executive decision taken by the Government. It was not a decision that was or needed to be taken by a parliamentary vote.

That is always the case - Perhaps you remember the Falklands War when Maggie sent the task force. It too was a Government decision which was subsequently approved by a parliamentary vote which Labour supported, just the same as the Tories supported the action of troops in Iraq.

You seem to wish to ignore the point that HM loyal opposition will always support troops in action they have to otherwise not loyal.

It most certainly is pinned on Labour, only Labour and nothing but Labour. As with so much else they may try to lie and cheat their way out of responsibility and there seems to be an endless supply of gullible fools around to help them.

You know the more I hear from supporter of this shambles of a Government the more I am reminded of the lines by Rudyard Kipling:

"If you bear to hear the truth you've spoken
twisted by knaves to form a trap for fools"

He must have had Blair in mind
 

Sgeir

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[ QUOTE ]
As I understand it, the money for the pensionsof thos currently employed in the NHS has not been stuffed under the mattress

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't know. Don't believe in mattress stuffing but in properly funded schemes - though having said that, it's only 2/3 years ago that a lot of schemes suffered 18-30% decline in asset value because of the market.

[ QUOTE ]
a future NHS pension will be paid out of future taxes

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, if it's not a funded scheme (I don't know) - press speculates that the potential unfunded public sector liability is of the order of £520bn (or was it £580bn?), ie about £10k per person in the UK. That's not a new problem, but one that successive governments have not previously felt the need to address.

Personally, I hope that NHS staff continue to look forward to decent pensions, but agree that it should be properly funded. Either way, we, the taxpayers, are the employer, and will have to fund it.

[ QUOTE ]
A greater and greater number of retirees will have to be supported by a smaller and smaller number of workers.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agree that this is the big challenge, hence the need to make sure that state, occupational, and private pensions should be properly funded for the future. But raising taxes are not terribly attractive for politicians, regardless of party.
 

jimi

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OK I\'ll bite again ..

You say
in debates you challenge points of view.
true ...

and politicians also twist facts ..

You say no need to measure trends just look at absolutes
.
don't we wasnt to know if things are getting better or worse?


You say
impossible to cut cost and improve service
.. that, my boy, is called management and is exactly how successful enterprises succeed in surviving

I also note you have failed to even acknowledge questions on admin/fronline ratios, Productivity comparisons.

You also make no attempt at grasping the difficulties of comparative economics and merely grasp at headline figures .. again a mark of a politician
..
My respect for politicians is not increasing .. over to you and please answer the questions asked and I wo'nt shout!
 

TheBoatman

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[ QUOTE ]
These threads always make me laugh....

No.. wait.. they make me angry. Funny how a thread about how you "don't know what to believe" is full of half truths and misconceptions isn't it?

Maybe if you made your own mind up about things, instead of having a direct feed from the daily mail into your brain you might be a little less disillusioned?


I think that after all these answers I was right to pose the original Post heading?
 

BustinAround

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Re: OK I\'ll bite again ..

[ QUOTE ]

You say
in debates you challenge points of view.
true ...

and politicians also twist facts ..

You say no need to measure trends just look at absolutes
.
don't we wasnt to know if things are getting better or worse?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes we do want to know that, but it doesn't mean you can ignore what the absolutes tell you.

[ QUOTE ]

impossible to cut cost and improve service
.. that, my boy, is called management and is exactly how successful enterprises succeed in surviving


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but the government has to rely on civil servants to deliver, and that is typically a problem. The minister can't sack the useless ones.

[ QUOTE ]

I also note you have failed to even acknowledge questions on admin/fronline ratios, Productivity comparisons.


[/ QUOTE ]

I did acknowledge them. You only mentioned admin/frontline ratios, and I said that they're not necessarily a measure of wastage or poor productivity.


[ QUOTE ]

You also make no attempt at grasping the difficulties of comparative economics and merely grasp at headline figures .. again a mark of a politician


[/ QUOTE ]

I have a very good grasp of the difficulties in the comparisons I have made. Those difficulties don't mean that a comparison isn't possible, you even did it yourself:
[ QUOTE ]

visit some foreign countries and see what they achieve with less money!


[/ QUOTE ]

So I show you figures that show most foreign countries actually have more money, and suddenly comparisons aren't possible any more.

A debate usually ends when one party starts throwing personal insults and swearing. So this is my last post on the subject.
 
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