Who or What should I believe?

[TheBoatman]

During the past couple of months throu' various media outlets (tv, newspapers etc) I have been told or read various statements which are supposed to all be true.
1. Government wants pubs/clubs to pay for policing drunken yobs causing probs after closing. Pubs/clubs say that HMG spends 10 billion/year on ALL police forces, but they (pubs/clubs) pay 22 billion/year in taxes/licences and levies to HMG, so go bog off.
2. HMG spends 20 billion/year on Quangos mostly inhabited by freinds of T.B.Liar and are totally un-accountable to thee and me but they are there for my benefit.
3. Speed camaras are only ever there to help with safety and not revenue sources for local police.
4. That the Dartford Crossing, although paid for, is still chargable for maintenance and not a revenue earner for HMG.
5. My local council intends to raise my coulcil tax to cover the extra costs imposed by HMG to cover things like keeping illegals and travelers in the manner to which they have become accustomed, but HMG say that they will "cap" my council for spending money on such outlined projects, either way I have to pay.
6. If I want to put up an extension to my house I have to go throu' the hoop with the local planning office and probably won't get permmission but if I own a caravan and the latest merc or BMW 4 x 4 I can just move in and do what ever I like.
7. Despite HMG assursions that I have human rights, they seem to apply to everyone else but me?
8. As a law abiding/middle England/Mr average/tax paying/hetrosexual/happily married/house owning/car owning family man, I feel that I have no one to turn to and that I'm at the bottom of the pile.
9. Despite various ministers comments about cutting red tape for small business's I am regularly bombarded with extra legislation/red tape with the threat of fines or imprisonment or both.
10. The police and HMG tell me that I can use reasonable force to repell burglars nicking my belongings but if I do I will probably end up in court and be found guilty and have to pay compo to the scroat that tried to nick my belongings. He will probably get legal aid whereas I will have to pay my own costs.
11. HMG tells me that the legal system is fair and un-biased but as Mr Average Middle England man I don't feel that way!

I give up, I don't know what to believe any more. Am I living in Utopia or am I being taken to the cleaners because I'm an easy target? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[mirabriani]

I have to say I have some sympathy for some of these views.

The government seem to continually grind down a large part of the
population, mainly the silent majority, not represented by a powerful union or lobby. These people tend to be the middle income,- trying to make ends meet- sort of people.

Sooner or later they will vote.
If they do not get the result they want, at least some of them,
might leave the country.

There seems to be a lot of programs like "Home in the Sun"
Quite a few "live a boards" and "would be's"
Also I assume a fair few with
£42,000 to spend on a round the world trip, but perhaps they do
not come into the above category.

Do you think HMG realise what could happen? Do they care?

Could be a good thread, I'm beginning to rant

Regards Briani

 

[Talbot]

How can you consider yourself to be part of the silent majority, and then admit to ranting /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Im off as soon as I retire! Had enough of tony and his cronies

 

[Stingo]

I've been back for a mere two weeks and still haven't settled in. I had huge plans for my business but am now thinking "F**** it, head outta this mess ASAP".

I've always been under the impression that hell is a hot place. Now that I am a little older, I realise in hell, it's bitterely cold, it rains constantly and the devil himself is called Tony

 

[BustinAround]

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif These threads always make me laugh.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

No.. wait.. they make me angry. Funny how a thread about how you "don't know what to believe" is full of half truths and misconceptions isn't it?

Maybe if you made your own mind up about things, instead of having a direct feed from the daily mail into your brain you might be a little less disillusioned?

I love the reply about "middle income families trying to make ends meet"! If a "middle income family" is in that situation, they should get a book on financial planning, because the low income families seem to survive just fine (i'm not talking about people on benefit here).

/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[mirabriani]

BustinAround, when I wrote that, I had in mind comments from
my customers not quotes from the Mail. There seems to be a general feeling of disillusionment.
I think if I suggested to them that they "get a book on financial planning"
I may well lose them as customers.
Do you not agree that credit card borrowing is increasing?
Do you not agree that a large number of people are relying on the value of their house to supplement their pension, into which they have likely paid all their working life?
Why not add to the discussion instead of criticising others points of view?

Regards Briani

 

[AlexL]

Trouble is people don't vote ! they moan about tony and his cronies and then vote them back in again.

What makes me see red at the moment is that I see that the national audit office have just released a report stating that far from culling the civil service as he promised, gordon has employed 260,000 (yes 1/4 of a milion) new public sector workers in the last year! to add insult to injury along with their copper bottomed pension funds the same report states that public sector wage inflation is now 5%. In the same period the private sector (which is the only people actually generating wealth and tax to fund this lot) lost 6000 jobs and had an average 4% pay rise. However I don't see the daily mirror ranting about public sector fat cats!

 

[moodycruiser]

Yep. we live aboard and are off to buy a "Place in the Sun" just to make doubly sure !! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[mirabriani]

So!
That is what I call voting with your feet.
Perhaps it should be voting by boat?
Hopefully I shall join you in a couple of years.
Just waiting for the old mother-in-law to...erm
well you know! (worried about Brendan)

So to further contribute to the thread...
When all the real earners, shakers and movers
leave England, sorry, Great Britain.
Who will remain to provide the taxes to run the place?

Regards Briani

 

[philmarks]

The fact is that this government takes the stance that it is preferable to have people employed, however pointlessly (quangos, home composting advisors and the like) than to have them on the dole (or actually using their own endeavours to look after themselves).

This is, to me, completely barmy.

The result is a growing public sector which must be funded by a shrinking private sector. Ergo, taxation must increase (and/or government debt).

Disappearing up our own a###holes comes to mind.

I'm abandoning the good ship GorTony, very soon, and sailing off in search of sanity.

ps I didn't vote for them

All IMHO of course

 

[BustinAround]

The main thrust of my attack wasn't directed at you, it was at the first post.

"Do you not agree that a large number of people are relying on the value of their house to supplement their pension, into which they have likely paid all their working life? "

I don't think you can blame the government for that one, if it turns out that your pension isn't going to be able to support you, yeah you're pretty stuffed, and maybe you should've taken that into account when you decided it was going to be the sole supplier for your retirement.

Interesting thing is that people site the pensions fiasco as an example of how government has failed us, but then moan about the government increasing regulation??

"Do you not agree that credit card borrowing is increasing?"

Yes I do, but I don't see what this has to do with disillusionment? Borrowing is high because of low interest rates surely? If people are borrowing too much then perhaps to try and prevent an economic crisis the government should regulate how much cash debt we are allowed. I personally think we're storing up a double whammy: If there is an economic downturn all that debt is suddenly going to become very expensive, and the retail sector, which has been artificially inflated by all this borrowing is going to have its bubble burst AND be hit like everyone else at the same time.

My point about middle income families stands however. If you are struggling to make ends meet on a reasonable salary, then perhaps you should've thought twice about buying everything on credit? I have no sympathy for reasonable earners who get themselves in debt needlessly and then sit on their new leather 3 piece and moan about how hard up they are!

 

[Mike21]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can blame the government for that one, if it turns out that your pension isn't going to be able to support you, yeah you're pretty stuffed, and maybe you should've taken that into account when you decided it was going to be the sole supplier for your retirement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately most private pensions especially company schemes are funded by being invested in the stockmarket, so as long as share value increases so does the value of your pension. Before Labour came in most funds had surpluses due to a very buoyant stockmarket, then T B Liar and co taxed the pension funds and effectively removed the surplus, thus when the stockmarket dropped drastically, most funds became underfunded.

So what does HMG do, give themselves a large cash injection into there own pension funds from tax receipts, while it's suggested the rest off us will just have to keep working or substantially increase how much we put towards our pensions.

But that becomes more difficult as it's very noticeable that the percentage of my salary that I'm left with after tax and ni has gone down substantially in the last 7 years. Then we have large increases in council tax, especially down south( non labour supporting areas) due to reductions in goverment grants, and looks like we're going to be faced with large rises in utilility payments due to the need to fund mprovements, which if Gordo had left them with their surpluses instead of taxing them away then maybe that wouldn't be neccessary.

So yes I think we can blame the goverment for most of the problems, and no I didn't vote for this lot either

 

[AlexL]

There are powerful economic arguments to employ people no matter what -after all the origonal 'new deal' in the US in the 1930's did just that - except it was a period of massive unemployment so giving loads of people public sector jobs didn't cause massive wage inflation like it is right now -and they did something useful - built the hoover dam, interstate highways - that sort of thing.
Next years budget is going to be an eyeopener for all the labour supporters and a vindication for the rest of us who have been saying for years that gordon is buggering things up in a massive way. Even last months budget had more holes in it than J edgar hoovers fishnets, and was reliant on tax receipts rising significantly over the coming year - which either implies massive growth or increasing tax rates

 

[AlexL]

actually the pension crisis is almost entirely G.Browns fault as he taxed the pension funds, and removed their surplus and then changed the accounting rules so companies effectively had to reduce pension fund contributions.

The housing boom, which has fueled the credit boom has many factors, but massive public sector pay deals, and giving free mortgages to 'key workers' (i.e anyone who works for the public secotr) has fuelled the housing demand somewhat.

Mr Brown, by his actions of taxing any profits, windfall taxing reserves and savings has efectively encouraged people not to save, and to get loads of debt.
I;m not sure which part of the county Bustinaround lives in but the fact is in the south east middle income families are getting into trouble - council tax is almost 3 times what it was a few years ago, and yet take home salary is well down, as taxes are up. If you work in the private sector a conservative calculation is that you need 10-20% of your salary going into a pension fund, rather than the 4-5% which public sector final salary schemes require.

So yes many of the woes can and should be laid at the governments door. I believe in my own personal responsiblity so I tend to take responsibility for my own actions - but this government don't agree with that either - so if they insist on nannying people, then they have to carry the can when things go wrong

 

[Bergman]

Half truths!

Well I would expect Blair and Co to have great expertise in that subject.

So lets try some whole truths.

Take the number of civil servants 260,000 increase and remember all these people will be entitled to pensions. Furthermore they will not be affected by the bilions of pounds Gordon took from the pension funds that we in the private sector are suffering from. Their pensions are paid from current account.

Thats a whole truth

This means that not only does the taxpayer pay them whilst they are employed but continues to pay them until the day they die - or even longer if they leave a widow! All from current taxation income

Thats a whole truth too

Middle income families: well I suppose it depends what you mean by making ends meet. Or perhaps the difference between living and existing. The fact is the bulk of taxation revenue comes from just these middle income families. Almost all of whom are employed meaning they are on PAYE which leaves little or no scope for any tax saving strategies. They are again typically raising children who cost money, lots of it. A proportion of that money is taxed - why?

Thats before considering the council tax they have to pay. Mine has almost doubled in Tony's time

And thats the whole truth

And the cost of running a car - or should'nt middle income families be allowed to own a car. How much more does that cost?

Perhaps the economy - maybe you have'nt noticed that the Footsie is lower now than when Blair came to power

Thats whole truth too

Your objection to the Daily Mail suggests a liberal stance - good

Perhaps you may consider the Criminal Justice Act 2003

trial without jury

imprisonment without trial

Wonderful liberal legislation

If you want half truths try weapons of mass destruction, dodgy dossiers, etc etc.

Now they really are half truths

 

[mirabriani]

No hard feelings Bustinaround. I just wanted to encourage you
to expand your argument, and you did.
However, I have to agree with Mike21, AlexL and Bergman
who I confess make their points rather better than I could.
It was point no 8 of Boatman's original post, with which
I felt an affinity, this started me on my rant.

Dearheart is thumping on the floor, duty calls!
Goodnight
Briani

 

[TheBoatman]

Firstly, I don't know who to beleive, secondly what half truths, thirdly, in owning my own company for the last 18 years I have managed to make up my own mind on a number of occasions and still stay in business! I suppose the difference is that I can make a decision based on the facts and not the "facts" as given to me by a politico.
I do know that I have saved into a pension for most of my adult life I am now being told that it's almost worthless because HMG decided to suck 6 billion a year out of pension schemes and then has the gall to say after 6 years that schemes are running 40 billion short and I really should be "paying more" for my old age unless I want to work until I drop.
My local council tells me that HMG has capped them, mainly because I choose to live in the south and not the north, and if I want the same level of services I really should be "paying more"
The NHS tells me that if I want any kind of service at all I really should be "paying more"
Within the latest Council tax bills there is a seperate section for policing and I'm told that if I need a copper to turn up within a couple of hours instead of minutes I really should be "paying more".
My local water company are telling me that because of HMG plans to have so many x thousands of houses in the Thames gateway that I will have to "pay more" so that they can generate/finance the extra water services required for them.

BUT on the other hand I'm being told by the polictico's that everything in the garden is rosy, I've never had it so good, that I really should pay up and shut up so that I can enjoy the Utopia that they have created for me.

BTW
Your post has to be the most crass I've seen in a long time?

I could go on but then I'm only speaking to a person that has completely missed the point of the post!

Obviously a Sun reader!!!

 

[AlexL]

Some other truths to add to mr blairs - "everything is so rosy" delusion
Manufacturing ouptut in the UK has fallen for 5 months in succession - if the 6th month is a fall, and there is nothing to indicate it won't be then we are in a recession, not a downturn or a minor problem but a proper warts and all recession. (official definition of a recession is 2 quarters of continual manufacturing decline) - G. Brown and supporters please note that real economists still view the economy of this country on a manufacturing basis - no one in the world bank or IMF is going to measure us on the number of civil servants employed!


The dow jones hit about 11000 before the bubble burst, but has now recoverd to 10500, the FTSE in the same period peaked at 7000 and is now languishing around 4500-4800.

I could almost live with all this if we had world class public services to go with world class tax, but no. A recent internatiol indipendant report rates our education nowhere near "best in class" not even close to average, and we are one of the only countries in the world where there is a massive diference between state and private schools. Even a recent government report had to concede that private and grammar schools are way outperforming state run comprehensive schools (and these calcs are based on 'education added' so are not effected by the acedemic differences in the intake).
And as been pointed out here, to cap it all the one saving grace of a liberal, lefty government should be nice touchy feely social policies, but no - we end up with a social program thats slightly to the right of hitler.

 

[BustinAround]

Wow what a barrage of posts disagreeing with me! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I don't hve time to answer all of you unfortunately, so lets stick to the pensions:

Firstly the complaint about the government propping up its own pensions with taxes. I'm not sure why or how you think that is the case, a large proportion of civil servants had their pensions with the equitable and the final salary scheme is being (has been?) abolished.

Also, pensions were in trouble before Brown decided to tax them, his decision to tax was based on Office of National Statistics figures (a non-ministerial department) that are now accepted to be incorrect.

So, his decision to tax was a wrong one, but the £40bn (there are lots of wildy varying estimates) shortfall can hardly be attributed to a £5bn tax can it? The reason that there is shortfall is because the average annual contribution is about £400. The treasury reducing the amount you are allow to save tax free has got nothing to do with this, because most people aren't even on coming close to the levels that are allowed!

People who have already saved are in trouble, but the reason you're being told you will have to work till you drop or "pay more" is because if you are the average person you *aren't saving*.

I'm not trying to say that this government hasn't done things wrong, in fact there are more things I disagree with than agree with, so why put in a "howard at PMQ's" performance and contest things that you can't pin on them, rather than the big whoppers that you can?

If we're talking about the iraq war, then thats because the tories supported it more than labour. Have they said anything about the chipping away of our civil liberties too? No they certainly haven't!

Government is never going to be perfect, but I solemnly believe that this one is at least 10x better than the alternative.

To conclude I'm going to pick a random example from the post that started this all off:

"2. HMG spends 20 billion/year on Quangos mostly inhabited by freinds of T.B.Liar and are totally un-accountable to thee and me but they are there for my benefit."

The quangos (not called that anymore, but never mind) are not inhabited by tonies cronies, in fact, if you want to sit on one, you can just go ahead and do it!

http://www.publicappointments.gov.uk/faq/PAU_FAQ_8pp_Leaflet.pdf

 

[cardinal_mark]

You can't believe a word they say and probably never could

For some reason most of the responses seem to infer that messrs Blair / Brown et al are in some way unique. No way! All they are doing is continuing the noble British tradition of smoke and mirrors in government - Scratchers mum was hardly pure as the driven snow - didn't she use her position to broker a multi million arms deal for her beloved son? Not to mention driving through policies that actually triggered rioting on the streets of this green and pleasant land!

They are all as bad as each other.

Trouble at the moment is that the alternative vision of The Prince of Darkness sneering at us from No 10 pedalling similar nonsense makes my skin crawl... not to mention putting Oliver Lightweight in charge of the the maths! And then there's that Kiljoy pillock droning on about honesty - was he pi**ed on Newsnight or had the drugs simply stopped working?

No, dont trust any of the bas*ards and above all dont vote, it just encourages them!

Oooh that feels so much better - I need a rant on a Friday!

Mark