Who carries the can?

[petery]

Got some very useful advice from the forum earlier this week on claiming on insurance when my boat was squashed by an out of control 600 ton commercial vessel.

.. but following point has come up in discussions with other 'casualties' with only 3rd party cover.

When a ship is under the control of a pilot and a problem occurs, do you claim against the ship's insurers or the pilot's insurers - ie who carries the can?

Does it also depend on who was actually at the wheel at the time and whetherv it was a mechanical failure or human error.



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[jhr]

I am no lawyer - so will probably be squashed flat by someone who is - but I suspect that the Master of a ship is always the person in charge, even if there's a pilot on board and that it remains his/her responsibility to ensure the safety of the ship and of others. Therefore I suspect the claim would be against the ship's insurers in the first instance, even if they subsequently brought a third party action against the pilot's employers.

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[Peppermint]

Re: If it comes to issuing writs

Everyone. If the going gets tough threaten everyone. The Skipper (Personally), The Company, The Pilot (Personally), The Harbourmaster, The Cargo Owners, The Dock Owners, etc.

You don't have to only claim from one source.

When I was in Local Government lots of pople sued the council. Took forever and nobody cared. Sue individual officers and councilors and watch everybody jump about. Very effective.

If you find it's going slow or getting complex get your own Claims Adjuster. They work on a fee, less than you might think, and they know their way through these problems.



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[kimhollamby]

Master under God

Not sure about insurance specifically but in legal cases my understanding has always been that the Master carries the can even if a pilot on the bridge.

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[oilyrag]

Your claim is against the Master/Owners of the vessel. A pilot is on board only to advise the Master and cannot be sued.
If the owner will not pay or even respond you can contact the Admiralty Marshall's office and have the ship arrested.
With most ships these days being registerd in obscure banana republics, and hence difficult contact, you might find this to be the only recourse.
In any case you should contact the local harbourmaster and find out who the ship's local Agent is and make contact with them initially.
Once a writ has been 'nailed to the mast' you would have your money in double quick time!
Arresting ships for sometimes quite trivial amounts is quite common in some parts of the world and all ship owners carry insurance to protect themselves and avoid costly detentions.


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[jamesjermain]

Re: Master under God

I think you are right, Kim, but it leads to the bizarre situation where the captain is legally obligted to follow the directions of the pilot but is also legally responsible for the actions of same if he gets it wrong.

<hr width=100% size=1>JJ

 

[ParaHandy]

Re: Master under God unless ...

The Port of Milford Haven were successfully prosecuted in 1999 of allowing pollution to occur from the Sea Empress. Other charges relating to the competence of the pilot were dropped because "the prosecution agreed that it would not serve the public interest to pursue the port authority on these charges as the main interest lay in the pollution offence." Make of that what you will particularly the reasons why it was not in the public interest.


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[Evadne]

You are right, the master is always in charge, except on ferries where the master or another officer is usually a pilot as well. It's a brave man or woman who ignores the pilot's "advice" though!

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[graham]

Pilots are only advisors to the Captain .In a disaster (in the uk)the pilot is likely to walk away scot free while the masters job is on the line.

You need to get things started before the ship sails,It could well have new owners ,agents and crew by the time you get hold of them or a forwarding address in Estonia...

 

[cynthia]

I once had a ship 'arrested', but it couldn't be effective until the warrent was 'nailed to the mast'. (How do you do this if the mast is not wooden?) As the boat in question disappeared it was a bit of a fruitless project.

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

It was the Master who was blamed for the QE2 when she hit rocks outside NY. The pilot was at the helm at the time. I do think this unfair as the harbour will not allow vessels into port without a pilot, yet the master is held at fault. The Master on the QE2 used to live next door but one to me, I did not know until after the accident, but then why would I, I suppose.

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/Honda_00.html>Honda Formula 4-Stroke racing</A>

 

[Guest]

The master of a vessel is always responsible for the actions of his vessel. The pilot is employed in an advisory role, giving advise on that particular stretch of water. For example when vessels turn up Southampton water, the bow is acted upon by one tidal current whilst the stern is acted upon by another.
When an accident occurs the Pilot will submit a 'accident report' along with the master. The insurers will utilise the services of a surveyor and then all claims will go through the Harbourmaster and surveyor prior to being honoured by the insurrance company; without this route no claim will be action. This will prevent fraudulent claims, such as someone claiming they runa speedboat ride firm when the boat is not licenced.
With regards vessles that have mechanical failures, the MCA become involved as they investigate if the vessel is seaworthy.
With regards Milford Haven, they were sued due to the fact that they did not have in place a system to react to the damage caused. This have made the Gov make all harbours and Ports have an 'oil spill contingency plan' and have equipment and staff trained. Inthis way the blame is with the harbour

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[peterb]

'Nail' it on with duck tape.

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