White ensign on a "ordinary" yacht

[maxi77]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

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While sailing around Mallorca, I saw a sailing yacht in a marina flying a white ensign. I did not have the opportunity talk to the skipper.
Are there circumstances that an "ordinary" sailing yacht might fly a white rather than red ensign? I suppose the yacht could be a Royal Navy training yacht, but there was no indication of this

TudorSailor

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A Royal Naval training vessel would have a Blue Ensign defaced with an anchor.

He would be a Royal Yacht Squadron member and Skipper/Master of the said vessel.

I haven't heard that they are not 'legal' outside UK waters??????


Al.

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In my day which was a few years ago RN owned yachts recorded in the Navy List, and remember not all yachts used for training are directly owned by the MOD, under the comand of a commisioned officer did fly a white ensign

 

[LadyJessie]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

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Until this country gets rid of all the fatuous pomp and pageantry, others will laugh at our fixation with the past and the UK will continue to decline and fade away.

[/ QUOTE ]I think you are right about that. Almost every country in Europe has gone through this 'class' and 'region' insignia's and finally come to the conclusion that we are all Europeans and better off for accepting this fact. That is what has finally kept this region free of wars for the last 60 years. That is not a long time in humankind. I think this recent resurge in regional display of loyalties on the British isles will eventually peter out. It might take a generation though while we will see a lot of St Georges (I have seen the most marked increase year-on-year in this one in the last four years in the Med) and Scottish ensigns. Hopefully that will not lead to a war. But eventually I think the British will be joining with what the Germans, French and Italians are already today doing to a large extent; fly the EU flag. You always join eventually......but late.

 

[wotayottie]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

A greater probability is that the Scoits will join with the French in common emnity to England. But wars - god forbid. I cant think of anything here worth fighting for. Particularly when there are nice places to emigrate to.

 

[Fletcher14]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

By white ensign are we referring to the Royal Ensign i.e. Royal Navy (red cross on white background with union jack in corner). If so, it's nothing to do with snobbery. A boat flying the royal ensign is paramount to a civilian aircraft having the RAF rings on it which can have serious consequences.

On the subject of yachts with royal ensigns, when I was in the Royal Navy they used to have royal ensigns on their training yachts but only for use with Royal Navy personnel. Same goes for the captains plaything which would sometimes be kept in the hangar.
Apologies if the white ensign and royal ensign are different things. I've never heard the term white ensign.

The flag on the yacht in question in this thread may have been a yacht belonging to a commisioned officer. They're allowed to fly them as well.

 

[SailorFrank]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

I might be wrong but I think that a white ensign is flown only by a Admiral in this situation

 

[HoratioHB]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

Sorry but a 'Royal Ensign' is a figment of Whitewaters imagination, despite his claim to having been in the RN and they ceratainly can not be flown on a yacht by commisioned officers. The White Ensign as it is known in the RN is flown by warships, BRNC darmouth boats in local waters and vessels belonging to members of the Royal Yacht Squadron. 30 years in the RN gives me a degree of certainty - but please try google if you don't believe me.

As for it being a symptom of British/English intransigence/snobbery. Why the hell shouldn't we have a few flags that reflect our Naval heritage? I personalyy don't object to what the next boat wears to show its identity or prejudices so don't criticise mine. Just remember that by doing your own thing at some time some jobs worth (probably in a european marina) is going to take exception and possibly some of your money!!!!!

Lets not get into repetition - just read the previous post (17 July) on this subject!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tomdroyal1980]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

Surely the flag you're supposed to fly depends on local law of the country you're in? Law, (even Maritime law) differs form place to place, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that there are places that simply don't have an equivalent of the MSA, or have an equivalent of the MSA that makes no mention of flags. There may even be somewhere where flags are outlawed for some arcane reason.

 

[tomdroyal1980]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

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Why the hell shouldn't we have a few flags that reflect our Naval heritage?

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Because a £50,000 fine & goal for 2 years for forgetting to tie a flag on the back of you Westerly Nomad is obscene in a liberal society with overcrowded prisons?

 

[Fletcher14]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

That was a bit 'cutting' HoratioB. I don't claim great knowledge on this forum but I'm no liar. I was an Able Seaman(R) on the LSL HMS Intrepid for 9 years and we certainly did call it the 'Royal Ensign'. If it was ever called the White Ensign I don't recall it but then there's a lot I don't recall after 18 years. I certainly remember it being called Royal Ensign in GNK in HMS Raleigh. Mind you there were a lot of things we mis-pronounced in the RN like we'd pronounce bowline as bo-linn and forecastle as focsle and be told off if we didn't pronounce it in this incorrect way. Maybe the officers (or pigs as we called them) used the term white ensign. We certainly called it royal ensign.
RN Hurley 14's were at Jupiter Point in Plymouth and I believe they still are (or a modern equivalent) and no doubt still flying Royal (or white) ensigns while used for RN purposes or maybe that's changed. I'd be surprised if it has.
One occasion I do remember on this subject was a yacht in Lisbon harbour flying a small royal ensign and our captain and officers got quite excited about it thinking it was a colleague and going over to it and being disapointed. I don't know what happened but he wasn't flying it next day.
Another 'flag' thing I remember was that we used the term 'union jack' for the British flag but the army used the term 'union flag' and there were many heated debates between servicemen as to who was right or wrong. Neither probably.
However, an A/B(R) as I was, was a lowly position in the RN so it doesn't make me an expert, but I'm not a liar HoratioB.

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

It's a jack when flown from the 'Jack Staff' at the bow. Any other time it is correctly called the union flag -so in the navy it is correctly called the union jack and in the army it is correctly called the union flag - although common (though technically incorrect) usage is Union Jack.
Forecastle - is in fact pronounced focsle and bowline is pronounced bo-linn to prevent confusion with bow line when orders are being shouted (not that we ever shouted on HM ships) . The use of the word 'Royal' for the white ensign is slang to differentiate Royal from Merch (navies) but is not the correct name.
FWIW there are always exceptions to any rule - eg the USS Winston Churchill flies the RN white ensign alongside the stars and stripes, the church of St Martin in the Fields and the SS Great Britain are other exceptions...
BTW-- I was an AB Minewarfare. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[ccscott49]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

Actually the boats at dartmouth college wear a blue ensign, as I saw them every morning for two years.

 

[HoratioHB]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

Oops dodn't mean to call anyone a liar, please accept apologies but these flag threads have been going on for days now and there seems to an enormous amount of simple misunderstanding.

It really is quite simple yet seems to generate a ridiculous amount of heat for some reason. The RYA web site and other web pages are quite clear. I personally have no problem following the 'rules' but if other people want to fly someting else - good on them.
I am now withdrawing from this debate as its just going round in circles.

 

[maxi77]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

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Actually the boats at dartmouth college wear a blue ensign, as I saw them every morning for two years.

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In my two years there it was the blue ensign if it was a trainee such as myself as skipper, or white if a staff officer who thus was fully commisioned was in charge.

Mind you time change

 

[DJE]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

Going back to the original post if I may, could the British yacht have been one of the Dunkirk Little Ships and hence allowed to fly the White Ensign in harbour?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

DJE - I believe that's called 'bowling a wrong-un'!

 

[benjenbav]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

Without wishing to throw petrol on the flames, does anyone know what sort of ensign is worn by the pleasure yacht sailed by HRH Princess Anne, the Princess Royal, the well known pharologist, yachtswoman and badger disliker, and her husband Admiral Timothy Laurence?

One might imagine they would be rather spoilt for choice.

 

[Fletcher14]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

I've been informed on the HMS Intrepid old boys forum at http://hmsintrepid.com/public-chat-f2/royal-ensign-or-white-ensign-t238.htm that it was indeed 'white' ensign, so I'm guilty of the cobwebs of time there. Ref Princess Annes yacht, I remember when there was an official 'Royal Yacht' and it was manned by RN crew and flew the white ensign. Not sure about Princess Annes yacht.

I saw a tall ship 'owned' by the Royal Navy called the 'Nelson' at Liverpool this weekend and that flew the red ensign. Seems like it depends on who crews it.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

TS Nelson is not owned by the Andrew but by the Jubilee Sailing Truss.

The ex-Royal 'Yacht' Britannia (actually a RN Hospital Ship for naval purposes) did fly the white ensign, She is now a tourist attraction on Clydeside and probably flies the McDonalds logo.

Annie has (had?) a Rustler 36 called Blue Doublet, and when I saw it last it was flying a defaced blue - presumably from her YC . Actually I suspect she is hon commodore of so many YCs she could fly almost any ensign she chooses.

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

the 'rules' are actually set by international treaty via the IMO which is a UN backed organisation and all signatory countries are expected to enact legislation that complies with the IMO agreed standards

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: White ensign on a \"ordinary\" yacht

she is entitled to wear an undefaced blue if she wishes as annie is commisioned in the RNR - but probably wears the red to avoid attracting attention to herself