which wind generator?

[Mistroma]

I have Rutland 913 with a brand new mast and HRDI controller sitting around that I haven't fitted yet .

It's one of those projects that I need to get round to. I'm also fitting solar, and given what is said on this thread I wonder if I should even bother with the windgen?

However, it's free power. Even if it only adds 30 AH a day, that's still a free 30 AH especially on days when there is no sun.

Yes, wind is free but cost of buying and maintaining a wind-gen is a lot higher than solar.

I think 30Ah a day is optimistic for a Rutland 913 unless you sail in areas with very strong, steady winds. My daily average each summer was about 7-10Ah per day in several cruising areas. West Coast of Scotland, France, Atlantic coast of Spain, Portugal and most parts of the Mediterranean. I have had a few days each year with 100-140Ah per day but the weather was pretty extreme. The remainder of the season consisted of many days with zero input or only a very few Ah.

Go further afield and it will be different with more to gain from wind. Where will you be cruising?

 

[Rappey]

Location must be a defining factor for wind?
Solent sailing always seems to involve lots of beating so ideal for wind.

 

[ajames]

I wondered about the output of the 1200 model. I assumed it might be a little more efficient than the 913 and the swept area is approx. 1.75 the 913 (after allowing for the fact that hub will take approx. same area). I'd think max. I'd get in Scotland would be about 2x the 913 i.e. averaging 15 - 20 Ah /per day over the summer months.

Not great but still useful. Does that estimate match up with your output measurements?

Yes mine easily meets that requirement while moored in a semi sheltered location. I find the biggest benefit is while sailing (except downwind) I found mine was kicking out about 35 amps yesterday but admittedly that was a force 8 so not representative of normal conditions. Your power generation beyond how much wind there is will definitely be influenced by how much time you spend moored/anchored vs sailing from my experience.

 

[Graham376]

On passage I assume you hand steer, overnight and don't need a de-sal unit (due to the absence of granddaughters ).

Your comment was that no monohull has enough room for solar to cope, which is blatantly wrong. For your heavy power usage with multiple showers and devices it would be be difficult but, that heavy use of power isn't typical for most cruisers/liveaboards.

I have no children or grandchildren that I'm aware of No, we rarely hand steer. Solar, batteries (450ah) and autohelm have worked well on extended trips such as Biscay crossings although at that time 200w panels were definitely marginal. Fridge draws 7 amps left on 24/7, notebook computer on all day, TV for a couple of hours most evenings, tablet & phones charge overnight, all lights led, fan on when it gets to 30 degrees below decks. No aircon or watermaker.
Batteries down to 12.35v - 12.42v by dawn. O.K, we do have the advantage of Algarve sun and would need more solar further north.

 

[Graham376]

It's one of those projects that I need to get round to. I'm also fitting solar, and given what is said on this thread I wonder if I should even bother with the windgen?

Depends on where you're going to mount it. Ours was on the solar gantry and its shadow often killed solar output when there was no wind so, all charging lost, the main reason I removed it.

 

[geem]

I was saying that Neeves statement was being interpreted as "you can't fit enough panels on a mono-hull, only a cat has enough space". He didn't actually say that but I think "Monohulls lack the empty spare space to install sufficient solar panels to run a yacht, 24/7" was close enough to give some people that impression.

A later explanation was that with many people on board, multiple daily showers, overnight sails, locations with little sun, etc. you'd struggle. I don't think anyone would argue with that statement.

A mix is obviously good but wind should not be prioritised over solar for most people.

My experience is that those liveaboards that choose large catamarans have generally got 1000 to 2000w of solar. They run everything from solar without wind turbines. They often have washing machines, large fridge and freezers, watermakers, ice cream makers, coffee machines etc. We rarely see a monohull with more than 600w of solar. The opportunity to install such large amounts of solar simply doesnt exist on most monohulls.

 

[robmcg]

Swimming against the flow here but I have found solar next to useless (in Scotland) with wind gen out performing an 85watt panel by a country mile. At least a wind gen has potential to generate over a 24hr period, solar can't.

 

[Mistroma]

Swimming against the flow here but I have found solar next to useless (in Scotland) with wind gen out performing an 85watt panel by a country mile. At least a wind gen has potential to generate over a 24hr period, solar can't.

To be fair, I have run into a couple of people who seemed happy with their 913. One could only say it kept his batteries charged but didn't have any way to monitor either state of charge or output. The other chap lived quite a bit further North and also had his fitted half-way up his mizzen mast. I assumed that further North and mounted high up would make quite a difference. He could be very specific but did run his fridge constantly and said his battery was always charged. On the down side, he said the current one was a replacement as the other had exploded in severe weather. It destroyed his radar and he pointed out areas on deck recently repaired. I decided that mounting halfway up the mast had a downside.

I'm still surprised that your solar wasn't as good as a wind-gen. Which wind-gen do you have and what over what period were your daily output measurements recorded.

I did daily output measurements between 2009-2018 for the 913 and kept daily solar output until end of 2019.

Even as far north as Skye you can expect the following daily Ah from an 85W panel mounted flat on deck clear of shading.
Month Avg. daily Ah
Apr 17
May 22
Jun 23
Jul 21
Aug 16
Sep 11

The figures are for an average year. My 913 never managed to average more than 10Ah per day over the summer months on West coast of Scotland.

It was also an awful lot more expensive than an 85W panel.

 

[robmcg]

It is a Rutland 913, v an 85watt panel. In all fairness, there are a lot of variables re wind speed and amounts of sunshine but the solar panel struggled to make an amp through a pwm charge controller. Even angled directly at the sun on a sunny day, it struggled to get into 3amps per hour territory. The Rutland put out useful amps in 15kts of wind which was common. The solar panel is a flexible job and wasn't a cheap one. It also started to delaminate a bit after a couple of seasons. The wind gen was always more reliable but I may have had a duff panel, based on the figures you quote.

 

[Mistroma]

It is a Rutland 913, v an 85watt panel. In all fairness, there are a lot of variables re wind speed and amounts of sunshine but the solar panel struggled to make an amp through a pwm charge controller. Even angled directly at the sun on a sunny day, it struggled to get into 3amps per hour territory. The Rutland put out useful amps in 15kts of wind which was common. The solar panel is a flexible job and wasn't a cheap one. It also started to delaminate a bit after a couple of seasons. The wind gen was always more reliable but I may have had a duff panel, based on the figures you quote.

Yes, makes more sense. I was pretty anal about measuring and also had a flexible panel where output dropped off dramatically. Rigid panels just seem to keep working unless you drop a spanner on one. Output is supposed to stay pretty high even after 25 years, close to original spec.

I always anchored in sheltered spots and Rutland 913 is rubbish in those conditions. People see it turning and think it is generating power but is probably putting out under 0.3A. I was able to record fairly accurately over extended periods and there wasn't much doubt about the output. I might still be able to find daily figures for West coast (Clyde up to Kinlochbervie) in an old XLS file. The amount of time it generated little certainly outweighed the time there it was putting out a fair bit.

I never left it connected over the winter. I saw 2 boats with broken Rutland 913s in the yard at Ardrossan one winter and that was enough to convince me to remove it in winter. The one one the mizzen mast even made me worry about it in Summer. However, it's never been a problem as I've always been able to tie it off before extreme weather arrives.

 

[Neeves]

Other than Geem, ourselves and the VG - virtually no-one has much good to say of hydro - and for us hydro is by far superior to anything else (when you are sailing). Obviously if you stay at anchor in the same place for long periods of time - then hydro is not much use, similarly if you stay at anchor in one place for a long period of time and choose the location because it is sheltered from wind - then a wind gen is equally of not much value - leaving solar or some form of generator/alternator as the only viable means.

Its horses for courses.

I wish we had bought the Aerogen 6, rather than the Aerogen 4. I don't think there was an Aquagen 6 but the 4 is amazing (as a hydro gen).

What is not mentioned by the advocates of solar is the high rise development you need on the transom to support panels of sufficient size to allow self sufficiency. More easily possible on a 44' or 50' yacht - you would struggle on a 30' yacht - and I wonder what the bulk of members own (in terms of vessel size). I do accept that having a decent Bimini structure is a requirement for someone living aboard for an extended period - but some of the structures I see must be great for solar installation - but questionable, due to windage, for an ocean crossing.

Someone deciding to sail round the UK in a 35' yacht will have different requirements for power vs the owner who has the exact same yacht that they sail at weekends with the wife and kids in the Solent or the exact same yacht they use for 4 months of the year in the Med. All or each are making good use of their yacht but the sailing (and power demands) is/are completely different.

I apologise - my comments on a cat vs a mono were a bit too black and white and I further accept not many (for a variety of reasons) sail a catamaran. Historically catamarans are an expensive investment but the numbers coming onto the market now, from charter fleets, are increasing in number and offer greater opportunity for a buyer (if you can find somewhere to keep it (ours is on a swing mooring, which costs the same as the same length mono).

If we want an extra panel - I simply stick it on and wire it up, most (who own a mono) would need to modify or install a stainless structure - which seems slightly more complex than us.

There is no one correct answer - just recall the OP did specify he wanted a Wind Gen and that he wanted it for 7 day offshore passages (which might mean not easy ac cess to a tap for water - though for 7 days - maybe not a big deal - but I think in terms of the 21st Century and possible crew).

Jonathan

 

[Mistroma]

I said "a towed generator will give you more power than you are likely to need when sailing in a moderate breeze" in post #13. I've known a few people who have used them on trans-atlantic crossings and they were great. People with a duo-gen said they did use the wind-gen position but it didn't really generate much power. Not exactly surprising and it would be a huge drop in comparison to the excess they were getting under sail. It was a bit of a faff to deploy and recover, so only used on pretty long passages.

I didn't really focus on towed as OP was asking about wind-gen. I also thought he meant spending weekends or a week on board and doing off-shore trips as mostly sailing during the day. My brain filled in that meaning as I used to sail in Holland quite a bit and you can sail from Germany to Belgium or over to England as day sails with the odd overnight sail. I have drifted around the North sea for a week but that was from Scotland to Holland in a very small boat about 40 years ago. It would be interesting if OP could confirm that he is mainly planning 7 day single hop sails.

 

[geem]

People with a duo-gen said they did use the wind-gen position but it didn't really generate much power. Not exactly surprising and it would be a huge drop in comparison to the excess they were getting under sail. It was a bit of a faff to deploy and recover, so only used on pretty long passages.

The Duogen is super simple to deploy in water mode. We use ours every time we sail. You simply pull a pin and lower the unit in to the sea with a rope. It then generates about 200amps per day at 12v on a typical sail. In wind mode it puts out more amps than any of the smaller turbines like Rutland but like any turbine, its contribution when wind is below 15kts is woeful. At 25kts it will run the boat but really not an issue when you have solar. Even in the Caribbean where we have lots of wind, the turbine doesn't really do much compared to solar
The way I look at it, what ever you are prepared to spend on a wind turbine would buy you some extra batteries to get through the night and lots of solar so don't bother with a wind turbine. The best bit of our Duogen is the water mode

 

[Mistroma]

The Duogen is super simple to deploy in water mode. We use ours every time we sail. You simply pull a pin and lower the unit in to the sea with a rope. It then generates about 200amps per day at 12v on a typical sail. In wind mode it puts out more amps than any of the smaller turbines like Rutland but like any turbine, its contribution when wind is below 15kts is woeful. At 25kts it will run the boat but really not an issue when you have solar. Even in the Caribbean where we have lots of wind, the turbine doesn't really do much compared to solar
The way I look at it, what ever you are prepared to spend on a wind turbine would buy you some extra batteries to get through the night and lots of solar so don't bother with a wind turbine. The best bit of our Duogen is the water mode

I'd say that's in line with feedback from friends. Huge excess when being towed but underwhelming unless it's pretty windy. The Rutland 913 documentation gives about 3A in 15knots wind and it is probably close to that figure. Unfortunately, most of the places I've sailed can be windy during the day and then it drops overnight. You often end up with no solar overnight and little from the wind-gen. Remember, 15knots is close to top end of F4 and it needed to be pretty steady at that, not dying down frequently. We also tend to anchor in sheltered areas.

Every little does help and I'm even happy with a steady 1A overnight. The fridge is on and the batteries drop but I need to put a lot back due to charging low efficiency close to 100% SOC. I reckon every 1Ah produced overnight saves me putting about 2Ah back into the batteries during the day. Unfortunately, output is usually nil overnight for much of the summer in parts of Greece.

I suppose another -ve is that my PWM wind-gen regulator has to compete with a very good MPPT regulator on solar. Even on moderately windy, cloudy days the MPPT manages to get the battery voltage to 14.4-14.8V. The wind-gen isn't spinning fast enough to give the voltage needed to charge. It might be capable of running a 2A device directly but actually puts virtually nothing into the battery.

I've never measured this effect and my earliest measurements in Scotland (approx. 10Ah/day) weren't much different from pre and post solar measurements. I imagine it will help to have a newer MPPT regulator (or be charging batteries with a much lower SOC ).

I do know that friends who had a duo-gen never deployed it for towing when we sailed in company. They said it wasn't really worth bothering about changing from wind to towed mode for day sails. It made sense as they had a enough solar to run the fridge and would be running the engine enough to make up the shortfall when lifting or deploying the anchor.

 

[Erwin Swart]

thanks for all feedback.
see most of you have preference for solar for day trips as this generate more power then wind gens and also is cheaper.

@Mistroma: our sailing trips vary from day trips up to non stop week trips

interesting to see the feedback for hydrogens, nice kit though too expensive for my current usage. Looking for a while to collect the aquair 100 towing generator though they are hardly available.

 

[duncan99210]

Just to add that my Aquair 100 produces about 1 amp per knot when sailing. It’s not quiet as simple as the Duogen to rig or recover but I bought mine for €250 6 years ago, so it doesn’t owe me anything. As I said earlier, unless the wind is forecast to be above f4 for more than a few hours, it’s not worth rigging it in wind mode.