Which sub 37 ft yacht to cross the North Atlantic in?

[geem]

The late Philippe Harlé who was one of France's leading marine architects used to say that a skeg on a boat was a nonsense. If it took a hit it could block the rudder whereas if a spade rudder takes a hit even with the stock bent the rudder might still function.

He designed my Feeling 920.

If a spade rudder takes a hit it will be pushed up against the hull. No chance of steering. This happened to a guy we know who eventually abandoned the boat mid Atlantic. If a skeg takes a hit you have a chance. A full skeg is a strong beast completely unlike a spade rudder.

 

[Bajansailor]

He's talking about buying something with a collision bulkhead at least 15% of the LOA from the bow. I doubt many sub 37ft boats on the market will have this? Serious $$ to fit one I'm guessing and it would negatively effect the residual value of the yacht?

The Joint Services (JSASTC) have a fleet of Victoria 34's outfitted for sail training - here is a photo of a couple of them sailing.
https://www.facebook.com/JSASTC/pho....1495767190./1327811427255559/?type=3&theater

I had a look around one while she was moored at Lymington town quay some years ago, and noticed that she had a water tight bulkhead between the saloon and the forecabin, complete with a 'proper' water tight door that had 'dogs' around the perimeter and all connected on a linkage allowing the seal to be compressed all around when the door is shut.

Watertight bulkheads are a good idea for sure, but the problem is implementing them practically...... it is a requirement for pretty much all commercial working boats to conform to at least a one compartment standard of subdivision, and I think that it is a two compartment standard for passenger vessels.

It is feasible on yachts - here is an excellent account of how one sailor made his 28' yacht 'unsinkable' (well, almost) by adding various water tight compartments inside.
http://atomvoyages.com/articles/improvement-projects/258-unsinkableboat-1.html

 

[Tippex]

Rustler or Rival 36 sound good. Basically, you want a boat that sits down in the water.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

The late Philippe Harlé who was one of France's leading marine architects used to say that a skeg on a boat was a nonsense. If it took a hit it could block the rudder whereas if a spade rudder takes a hit even with the stock bent the rudder might still function.

I think this must be a very poor summary of what he said, because he wasn't stupid and this is complete tosh.

If the skeg is built as part of the hull, it provides enormous strength and protection to the rudder. The amount of protection being simply a function of the design of the skeg. But once you've desided that a boat design is going to have a skeg, then there's no design criteria to prevent you making it as strong as possible.

Spade rudders on the other hand, always have a trade off between strength (the acceptable maximum diameter of the shaft and materials cost) versus slimness to reduce drag. Spades with metal shafts are notorious for bending when loaded excessively and become jammed against the hull.

 

[jonjo]

I think this must be a very poor summary of what he said, because he wasn't stupid and this is complete tosh.

If the skeg is built as part of the hull, it provides enormous strength and protection to the rudder.

This is not universally true.

As boat design moved from long keels to fin & skeg there was a tendency for evermore slender skegs. Eventually yacht design arrived at a point where slender skegs were inferior to a properly designed spade rudder.

Why would you place more faith in a elongated hand moulded GRP protuberance than a single machined spade rudder stock? Would you prefer to fly transatlantic in a gypsy moth bi-plane or Boeing 777?

 

[Motor_Sailor]

Why would you place more faith in a elongated hand moulded GRP protuberance than a single machined spade rudder stock?

Because by using my calculator or computer programs I can easily design a skeg hung rudder which is more impact resistant than any spade rudder. It's pretty basic engineering. Whilst it's true that some skegs have been token gestures it's also true that some spade rudders have also been unfit for purpose.

So my argument is not that you can't have a safe spade rudder, it's with the so called 'quote' that there was something intrinsically wrong with ALL skegs and that the mechanism for damage of ALL skegs was more debilitating for the rudder than a similar blow would be inflict on a spade rudder in the same circumstances.

 

[Concerto]

As boat design moved from long keels to fin & skeg there was a tendency for evermore slender skegs. Eventually yacht design arrived at a point where slender skegs were inferior to a properly designed spade rudder.

In the early 1970's my parents owned a Nicholson 30 that we raced as a family. It was hull number 6 and the rig had already been raised by 2ft 6" to get to the half ton rating. It still did not get close enough, so later boats were fitted with an extra lead shoe on the base of the keel to make them stiffer. All the extra power caused the boat to be too directionally stable with a skeg. On one occassion running with full spinnaker and full main, the log was locked on the 10 knot stop and the wind speed indicator was stuck on 48 knots, it took 3 out of the crew of 5 to keep the boat in a straight line. Yes we were over canvassed, but we were racing from Harwich to Ostend in an EAORA race. Later we had a wipe out, but we still came second out of over 70 boats. Because of the directional stability we had a chat with the designer, Raymond Wall, and he said others had experienced the same problem. His solution was to remove the skeg from the transom hung rudder. We were the 2 second boat to remove the skeg, but Raymond Wall asked us to fit a swept back profile. What a disaster as the helm became very heavy. So a new rudder was made to the original design, and the problem was completely solved. All later Nich 30's were built without the skeg.

For higher performance, then a spade rudder is better than a rudder with a skeg. Even better is a balanced spade rudder, like fitted to my Westerly Fulmar. Very light to the touch and very little helm need to alter course. Several years ago I spoke to Ed Dubois about his designs for the Fulmar rudder as I had been told by another owner they had tried 4 different rudders. That was not true as they tank tested 4 different rudders and the best performing was used for the first and all subsequent Fulmars.

Talk of bending rudder posts jamming, this is a very rare occurance and should be treated the same as hitting a container at sea - very highly unlikely. I did speak to someone who lost a yacht with a jammed spade rudder, but the prop shaft coupling had come undone and the shaft jammed the rudder on full lock in a gale. He could not pull the shaft back due to the motion and lost the yacht.

 

[lw395]

These days, the strength needed in a spade rudder is well understood.
People are designing such things and they are getting pushed hard in racing, every day for the last 30 years or more.
There are not many modern designs with skegs that can claim to be proven by lots of racers pushing them to the limit.
A skeg rudder is inferior in a modern boat from a performance point of view as the skeg prevents the rudder from working as a free foil, the skeg/rudder combo works as a single foil, one part of which is relentlessly aligned with the keel. So it's not ever so good for turning the boat in a tight circle. So you may need a bigger rudder, all else being equal, which it never is.
IMHO, more boats crossing the Atlantic are not up to it due to being shagged out than due to bad design. So trade off 'old skool' durability against having a boat that's not served its time with other owners. And accept that modern racing has help engineer the weakness out of modern race-influenced boats. Equally there are good cruising boats but there is a fine line between designing a pure cruising boat with an open mind and aping the past.

Fundamentally, it's an ocean out there and no little plastic boat is indestructible. 'Little' in this context goes up to several hundred tons.
Understand the risks, plan the whole thing coherently according to your beliefs about risk, man up and enjoy it. Nobody can make those judgments for you.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Without having any research or figures to hand, I wonder if too much weight is given to the 'desirability' of old designs because so many of the iconic world voyages were made in small boats sailed by sailors who thought that 'their' choice worked and therefore it was the best choice.

Some of the progression and development in yacht design produced some absolute dogs for heavy weather and blue water sailing with scantlings that flexed and that were clearly unsuitable. Before the traditional boat aficionados start feeling too cocky some of the traditional designs were absolute dogs to sail too! (Gypsy Moth IV for example.)

The real question for me is the undue weight given to the occasional accounts of boats foundering compared to the many many thousands that cross oceans safely and without note or incident. An earlier post cited something like, "... heard too many tales of fin keeled yachts with spade rudders failing in some way." Yet this completely ignores the fact that some of those stories are from yachts that were racing or had been raced hard and where maintenance and warning signs were ignored... It also ignores the fact that the vast majority of yachts that sail off across the Atlantic (and some across the Pacific) are fin keeled with moderate keel dimensions/designs and a lot of them have spade rudders.

Our own boat has a spade rudder but the rudder stock is 3" diameter solid stainless steel. I suspect that the back end of the boat would be ripped off before our rudder stock bent, its so over engineered compared to some that I see.

My attitude is similar to the one I have over people who worry about having even one hole in the hull with a bronze seacock who don't sleep at the thought of it failing and the boat sinking... If you've got some wooden bungs on board 'just in case' why are you getting worked up? Double clip your hoses, maintain your seacocks and get on with sailing.

 

[Tranona]

Hooray! at last some common sense endorsing what I have been saying for years on here.

It really is basic logic. If you are going to do any research to understand phenomenon the important thing is to consider all the evidence - not just the ones (in this case) that fail The phrase " a way of seeing is a way of not seeing" underpins empirical research. By concentrating on the "failures" you are ignoring the vast majority of boats that do not fail - and the number of failures (of any sort) are tiny in both absolute and comparative terms.

What can be learned from failures is highly individual - that is there is little discernable pattern in the failures. The best you can do is highlight the specifics of each one (as the MAIB reports do) and draw any useful conclusions that might be applicable in for example other designs. To extrapolate such findings as a generalisation as some people seem to is just bad science.

This is very basic stuff and taught in the first sessions of any good undergraduate research methods course. So one might understand why those of us like myself who spent half a lifetime teaching and supervising university based research get frustrated by some of the unfounded opinions expressed on here - particularly on this subject.

 

[geem]

Hooray! at last some common sense endorsing what I have been saying for years on here.

It really is basic logic. If you are going to do any research to understand phenomenon the important thing is to consider all the evidence - not just the ones (in this case) that fail The phrase " a way of seeing is a way of not seeing" underpins empirical research. By concentrating on the "failures" you are ignoring the vast majority of boats that do not fail - and the number of failures (of any sort) are tiny in both absolute and comparative terms.

What can be learned from failures is highly individual - that is there is little discernable pattern in the failures. The best you can do is highlight the specifics of each one (as the MAIB reports do) and draw any useful conclusions that might be applicable in for example other designs. To extrapolate such findings as a generalisation as some people seem to is just bad science.

This is very basic stuff and taught in the first sessions of any good undergraduate research methods course. So one might understand why those of us like myself who spent half a lifetime teaching and supervising university based research get frustrated by some of the unfounded opinions expressed on here - particularly on this subject.

If I was coastal sailing or racing I would have a spade rudder on my boat. Their performance is superior. Why wouldnt you? It makes no sense to have a skeg hung rudder of this is how you use your boat. If I am sailing the oceans of the world but not racing then I look at the requirement differently. I am not in a hurry. I want comfort and safety. Crossing oceans you hit stuff. Just look at the ocean racing boats that have hit stuff and lost rudders, keels and now foils. I dont want to lose my boat and for the performance difference in an ocean cruising yacht why wouldnt you go for the security of a skeg hung rudder? On a 44 ft boat we have a full skeg with a very substantial shoe at the bottom of the skeg to support the rudder. In addition the rudder shaft is solid 2" diameter s/s with sustantial fixing at the top. We dont have any concern at hitting stuff with the skeg.
From an engineering perspective you cannot make a balanced spade rudder for my boat anywhere near as strong as my current set up. Its just not possible.

 

[GHA]

Crossing oceans you hit stuff. Just look at the ocean racing boats that have hit stuff and lost rudders, keels and now foils. I dont want to lose my boat and for the performance difference in an ocean cruising yacht why wouldnt you go for the security of a skeg hung rudder?

:encouragement::encouragement::encouragement:

Almost certain you'll be running of large patio sized messes of fishing nets & floats once in a while and not even know about it unless the grab your rudder. Everything you can do to push the odds in your favour is a very good thing IMHO.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

With a spade rudder it may be possible to drop it out the stern tube to Davy Jones's Locker and then use the emergency rudder that was so thoughtfully prepared before voyaging across the oceans. I have a skeg, I am under no illusions that if something hit the skeg or rudder hard enough it could still be damaged and I may be stuck with a damaged rudder that I can't do anything with.

My point is, it's not either, or. It's not even the probability of damage, if it happens mid Ocean, it has to be dealt with so that the boat can get to a port. Being blunt here, but my perception is that there are too many hapless leisure sailors in the Ocean that can't get themselfves out of trouble because they have not thought through and practised the contingencies i.e having a jury rudder plan that works.

 

[geem]

:encouragement::encouragement::encouragement:

Almost certain you'll be running of large patio sized messes of fishing nets & floats once in a while and not even know about it unless the grab your rudder. Everything you can do to push the odds in your favour is a very good thing IMHO.

We actually got a pretty substantial peace of net we think, around the keel off the coast of North Wales. The first thing we knew about it was a drop in boat speed of 7knts to 3kts. We managed to get it off the keel by heaving to for 5 minutes. When we set off again we were back to proper speed. We knew there was something on the keel as we could hear some clonking on the hull when down below. When we lifted out at the end of the season we had a section of very deep grooves on the front of the keel all equal distance apart. Steel net? I doubt a normal net could have gouged the keel so deeply.
We have a folding prop and skeg to protect the rudder. This minimises the risk of catching stuff and having it stay attached

 

[Tranona]

If I was coastal sailing or racing I would have a spade rudder on my boat. Their performance is superior. Why wouldnt you? It makes no sense to have a skeg hung rudder of this is how you use your boat. If I am sailing the oceans of the world but not racing then I look at the requirement differently. I am not in a hurry. I want comfort and safety. Crossing oceans you hit stuff. Just look at the ocean racing boats that have hit stuff and lost rudders, keels and now foils. I dont want to lose my boat and for the performance difference in an ocean cruising yacht why wouldnt you go for the security of a skeg hung rudder? On a 44 ft boat we have a full skeg with a very substantial shoe at the bottom of the skeg to support the rudder. In addition the rudder shaft is solid 2" diameter s/s with sustantial fixing at the top. We dont have any concern at hitting stuff with the skeg.
From an engineering perspective you cannot make a balanced spade rudder for my boat anywhere near as strong as my current set up. Its just not possible.

Once again you are falling into the trap of ignoring all the spade rudder boats that never have any problems. As John says more than enough evidence that spade rudder boats successfully cruise all over the world. Read my post again - it is not, like yours trying to persuade others that your choice is the best. It is critical of those taking that position despite all the evidence to the contrary that other choices are equally suitable.

As I have said many times in these exchanges, probably the majority of ocean cruising boats now have spade rudders. Are all the buyers and users of these boats wrong?

You have your particular view of what boat is suitable for you - why do you have so much difficulty in accepting that others have a different view?

I have looked at boats that have lost rudders (at least the few that are reported). The number is tiny, both in absolute and comparative terms and there is usually a good specific explanation for each one, but no systemic pattern that I can see, with the possible exception of the composite fibre rudder stocks used on some Hunter models.

Remember the saying I quoted - concentrating on the failures ignores the successes. You may of course take the view that just one failure is one too many, in which case you might not buy an HR 48 based on last week's failure.

You may care to look at the new HR 44 to see the way design trends are going in this sector of the market. As with many similar newer designs it has twin spade rudders and the overall design shares many of the design principles used by the mass producers, although at a different level of execution (and 60-70% higher price). Do you seriously think they would go down this route if they thought it was not robust enough?

The OP (or his mate) is falling into the same trap in placing too much emphasis on choice of boat, when perhaps he should be concentrating on preparing both himself and whatever boat he has for the voyage. Preparation and skipper/crew competence being arguably the two biggest controllable factors for success.

 

[Sybarite]

If a spade rudder takes a hit it will be pushed up against the hull. No chance of steering. This happened to a guy we know who eventually abandoned the boat mid Atlantic. If a skeg takes a hit you have a chance. A full skeg is a strong beast completely unlike a spade rudder.

Well Philippe Harlé was responsible for around 15000 boats. Just sayin'.

 

[Concerto]

Well Philippe Harlé was responsible for around 15000 boats. Just sayin'.

He designed nearly 220 different types of boats, but not all were for sailing. https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...edia.org/wiki/Philippe_Harl%C3%A9&prev=search

He also died in 1991 after being a naval architect since the early 1960's (same wikipedia article). So he is very up to date with current design trends including double rudders!!!!

Looking through the list of yachts he designed includes the Feeling 286. I used to own a 286 and it definitely did not have a skeg.

Sorry Sybarite you need to get your facts correct. Phillipe Harle designed yachts with spade rudders, obviously because they were better contolled without a skeg.

 

[geem]

Once again you are falling into the trap of ignoring all the spade rudder boats that never have any problems. As John says more than enough evidence that spade rudder boats successfully cruise all over the world. Read my post again - it is not, like yours trying to persuade others that your choice is the best. It is critical of those taking that position despite all the evidence to the contrary that other choices are equally suitable.

As I have said many times in these exchanges, probably the majority of ocean cruising boats now have spade rudders. Are all the buyers and users of these boats wrong?

You have your particular view of what boat is suitable for you - why do you have so much difficulty in accepting that others hawve a different view?

I have looked at boats that have lost rudders (at least the few that are reported). The number is tiny, both in absolute and comparative terms and there is usually a good specific explanation for each one, but no systemic pattern that I can see, with the possible exception of the composite fibre rudder stocks used on some Hunter models.

Remember the saying I quoted - concentrating on the failures ignores the successes. You may of course take the view that just one failure is one too many, in which case you might not buy an HR 48 based on last week's failure.

You may care to look at the new HR 44 to see the way design trends are going in this sector of the market. As with many similar newer designs it has twin spade rudders and the overall design shares many of the design principles used by the mass producers, although at a different level of execution (and 60-70% higher price). Do you seriously think they would go down this route if they thought it was not robust enough?

The OP (or his mate) is falling into the same trap in placing too much emphasis on choice of boat, when perhaps he should be concentrating on preparing both himself and whatever boat he has for the voyage. Preparation and skipper/crew competence being arguably the two biggest controllable factors for success.

You regularly push modern designs as suitable or better than old designs. Me and thousands of others ocean sailing dont agree which is the reason why every time you say it I contest it on this forum. I dont accept that modern designs are better. Modern designs have the ability to bring sailing to many who couldnt afford it by reducing construction costs. This doesnt make them better, it makes them cheaper. Bolt on keel designs are cheaper to make, they aren't better. Spade rudders have better performance, they aren't stronger. High volume hulls have more accommodation they aren't safer. In my view, spade rudders for ocean sailing are the wrong choice. We had friends who had a nice modern design twin rudder yacht. They crossed the Atlantic in 2014 when there was a 300% increase in sargasso weed. They got so much weed wrapped around their exposed rudders that they needed to go over the side to clear it. How is this design an improvement on an ocean sailing yacht?
I will continue to argue with you when you sit on your modern marina yacht telling everybody that it is suitable for ocean sailing having never actually done any or have no intention of doing any.

 

[wotayottie]

I'm sat in it -a Starlight 35. Longish lead fin big rudder and the best balanced sea boat I have ever sailed. 36 ft long with secure cockpit and excellent deep cockpit lockers and cabin storage. Never ever rounded up on me. Would take mine across tomorrow - got the necessary kit. Sadly I am too old for that sort of adventure and under pressure from swmbo to sell up.

 

[jwilson]

We actually got a pretty substantial peace of net we think, around the keel off the coast of North Wales. The first thing we knew about it was a drop in boat speed of 7knts to 3kts. We managed to get it off the keel by heaving to for 5 minutes. When we set off again we were back to proper speed. snipped ....

That is one of the few situations when knowing that you can and know how to get your yacht to sail (not motor) backwards is of real use ......