Which starter yacht? (Not a 'project'!).

[pperrin]

I see lots of people asking for comparisons between specific boats here.... But I have a a more general question that I hope participants here can help me with...

I am a bit of a beginner, but have a budget of about £10,000 to cover 2-3 years sailing.

Being on the south coast, mooring for a 22' sort of yacht will be £2000-£3000 a year.

So I think the budget is something like £3000 for the actual yacht - I want to sail, not renovate so am not interested in 'projects' (although I am reasonably handy, so can do maintenance...).

I am happy to go out and spend an afternoon fishing, but also to spend a week at a time going up and down the UK coast, but my target is to build up to cross the channel... (Doing 'competent crew' some years back I did felixstowe to belgium, loved every second of it - me at the helm, the stars above and only water in every direction... (notwithstanding everyone else snoozing down below)), but I'd probably be looking at brighton-fercamp (seems to be a likely beam reach both ways, and a 12(ish) hour crossing maybe with the tide the whole time?...).

So a seaworthy 20-22 footer seems order of the day... speed is not crucial, but there is no reason to *want* to go slowly...

I can wait 6 months or so to find the right thing... (but tomorrow would be better ).

I realise at this price it may well be a repossession/fire-sale, but that is my budget(!).

Any advice is welcome... leads to suitable/worthy boats even more so!

Well, that is my cards on the table... what say you?

Cheers!

 

[armchairsailor]

Totally feasible. Try Hurley, westerly nomad, quarter tonners, Anderson 22, hunters, all that. And a shout to the Four-21 (I grew up sailing one). You’ll be looking at 70s vintage in all likelihood. Corrine, folkboat etc if you’re into long keeps. Take special care over engines - you’re getting a free boat with your engine, as the adage goes. Consider something with a trailer for less cash spent on yard fees over the winter.

 

[zoidberg]

'Armchairsailor' is right, wholly right. You will have lots of choice.
Several forumeers will suggest places where you may well rent a mooring at less than your assumed price, due to modest size. 'Seajet' may well be one of those, so a PM might prove productive.

There will be 'golden finds' and there will be 'dogs'. Perhaps some time spent in finding a more experienced friend, who can help avoid some of the latter, will be good investment. Some of the best will be boats which have become a little 'neglected', but which need little more than a good clean and clear out. An example of that might be the rugged Hurley 24/70 I 'rescued' from a mud berth for £500, stripped out, and sailed to Ireland and back. Others will have similar stories.

You will need to consider earmarking part of your budget for basic kit, so a purchase that includes the essentials 'all in' is perhaps desirable. The 'list of essentials' will grow, on here, with every passing hour.
There's a world of difference between 'needs' and 'wants'.... Think KISS.... Think 'boat jumbles' and online boaty marketplaces.... and don't forget the For Sale and Wanted sub-forums on here.

 

[pperrin]

Well this is a good start! Thanks armchairsailor and zoidberg.

I am local to Brighton and want a boat I can (amongst other things) take out for a few hours fishing if the weather is good - so mooring can't be 'tidal mud'!... I am currently expecting to use Newhaven.

I expect a 4 birth yacht, with maybe +1 or +2 for fishing so life jackets (£300) and I am expecting to need a 6 person life raft (£700).

I am trying to get a feel for inboard diesel vs petrol outboard -- I guess diesel is far cheaper to run, but far more for servicing/fixing/replacement.

 

[Graham376]

Our first boat was a Westerly Centaur which was a good stable seaworthy boat and we did many miles before moving up the ladder to something larger. Quite a few around well within your price range but look for one which has been re-engined and keel stubs strengthened. Why would you want a 6 person life raft? Sounds like you intend to be coastal sailing and large rafts with a couple of occupants aren't a good idea, I would rather cram 6 into a four man raft than have 2 in a six man one.

 

[pperrin]

Hi Graham376, I am thinking the trade off between boat and mooring points to around 22 feet, more would be good, but as the mooring budget goes up, the boat budget goes down... Ideally I'd like a junk rigged schooner, but I have to start somewhere

If I take more than 4 people out (afternoons fishing etc) and the worst did happen, it would be me who goes down with the ship... Can you get more than 4 into a 4 man life raft? Supplies aren't really an issue I'd expect to be picked up pretty quick where I am going! So its really for buoyancy and warmth.

 

[lw395]

If you want to cut costs, then you could consider joining a club which might reduce the mooring costs hugely.
Many of us did/do a lot of coastal and even cross-channel siling without a liferaft, but it's hard to advise anyone not to get one.
Annual budget wise, the cost of winter storage, hauling out, re-launching, antifoul etc does add up.
Don't forget the capital cost of things like a tender, outboard for it, oilskins, all the odds and ends that chandlers' shops are full of.

My first yacht was an Impala.
I went for a diesel engine, it is much more practical for longer distances.
But an outboard can be taken away for servicing and is cheaper to replace.
Pros and Cons.

I would say buy the boat that's in the best condition if it meets your needs, rather than chasing some ideal design.

 

[pperrin]

I am probably going to ask some stupid looking questions.... but....

I am looking at Newhaven for mooring - cheaper than Brighton Marina, but more than Shoreham Yacht Club -- but Shorham is being re-developed so will have no space for a year or more... and is tidal, some spots only usable an hour around high tide...

Newhavens' annual price includes three months on land (although they charge for the lift/launch) -- does a yacht need to be redone for anti-fouling every year? As a local I'd hope to get out fishing etc over winter if a nice day did come up... With a pontoon mooring, I am expecting to avoid needing a tender - is this sensible?

For the liferaft - I know some of the people I'll be taking out would be dubious about missing such an obvious/standard safety device (even if almost certainly never needed!) So it's got to be in the budget to get value from the package.

 

[Rum Run]

Ref the life raft, unless you are going out in bad weather you can tow an inflatable dinghy, which you might need to get to a mooring anyway. It was the normal thing before marinas became ubiquitous. This is what I do frequently and it does not cause me problems barring a small reduction in speed in light weather. I sail an Anderson 22 and often tow an 8' Avon roundtail.
I wouldn't be taking nervous or inexperienced people out in anything other than light weather, especially if I were inexperienced too.

 

[lw395]

When I bought my first yacht, I tried saving the cost of an inflatable.
I found it very restrictive.
A lot of the places we went, it's nice to get ashore.
To get good value out of a boat you need to make its use reasonably flexible.

You don't need to have the boat out for 3 months every year. Quite a few people just come out for a few weeks in Spring or even Summer. You will need to come out and anti-foul every year, you may want/need to dry out somewhere tidal and clean the hull between times.
Some places are only working with the 'out for the winter' model though.
Best to check this out before committing to a location.
Some moorings are hard to insure a boat on for the winter months. Talk to insurers too.

 

[ashtead]

One factor you might consider is the ability to trade on whatever tempts you this time . Most tend to trade up so if you seek out a known brand many will be up for taking on a well maintained example particularly if yours has for example a newish diesel and keel bolts etc so when looking at any model draw up a list of must haves and score against that and be ruthless in turning down any outside criteria. I suspect with a small boat your choice might be driven by location so say you were looking for a small Westerly there might only be say 5 in sailing distance back to your locality . Owners associations are good source of info plus old magazine articles . One of the advantages of a popular marque is many will have fettled them over years. I might also see if you can tryout some small vessels with older types who are looking to move on to motor with advancing years but looking for a home for their pride and joy and are more concerned it will be used than left to fester in some hidden foreign yard. Also if time permits walk around a few yards in colder months and strike up conversations with those who have small boats. There are often many keen to have a break from maintenance to pass on advice etc so get down to a few like Birdham or Emsworth to try your luck. You might find someone willing to sell whose not actively marketing so an offer market deal can be had.Good luck with your search though .

 

[Teko]

Look at a Leisure 23. (Not the SL as there significantly more expensive)

 

[Aeolus]

If you plan to keep your boat in Newhaven, check whether you will have all tide access to your mooring. Unless they've done some serious dredging, you may find that most berths are badly silted up and have very limited access.

 

[Cactus Sailing]

I see lots of people asking for comparisons between specific boats here.... But I have a a more general question that I hope participants here can help me with...

I am a bit of a beginner, but have a budget of about £10,000 to cover 2-3 years sailing.

Being on the south coast, mooring for a 22' sort of yacht will be £2000-£3000 a year.

So I think the budget is something like £3000 for the actual yacht - I want to sail, not renovate so am not interested in 'projects' (although I am reasonably handy, so can do maintenance...).

I am happy to go out and spend an afternoon fishing, but also to spend a week at a time going up and down the UK coast, but my target is to build up to cross the channel... (Doing 'competent crew' some years back I did felixstowe to belgium, loved every second of it - me at the helm, the stars above and only water in every direction... (notwithstanding everyone else snoozing down below)), but I'd probably be looking at brighton-fercamp (seems to be a likely beam reach both ways, and a 12(ish) hour crossing maybe with the tide the whole time?...).

So a seaworthy 20-22 footer seems order of the day... speed is not crucial, but there is no reason to *want* to go slowly...

I can wait 6 months or so to find the right thing... (but tomorrow would be better ).

I realise at this price it may well be a repossession/fire-sale, but that is my budget(!).

Any advice is welcome... leads to suitable/worthy boats even more so!

Well, that is my cards on the table... what say you?

Cheers!

silly question perhpas but why not look at swing moorings or even club moorings at circa a few hundred per year, invest in a decent dinghy and outboard and buy a decent centaur for ~ 6K (with the savings on mooring fees) already fettled by someone else?

https://www.apolloduck.com/boat/westerly-centaur/520260

no relation just centaurs are bloody good boats and will most likely carry their following should you choose to move on up in a few years, not to mention they're pretty roomy and can take the ground for cheaper maintenance. (obvious downside is poorer windward performance, but it gives you budget sailing options!)

just a thought.

 

[billcole]

A Pandora would be within your budget. Not as roomy a cabin as a Centaur, but seaworthy, decent sailing performance, and a good size cockpit for daysailing.

 

[pperrin]

Ref the life raft, unless you are going out in bad weather you can tow an inflatable dinghy, which you might need to get to a mooring anyway. It was the normal thing before marinas became ubiquitous. This is what I do frequently and it does not cause me problems barring a small reduction in speed in light weather. I sail an Anderson 22 and often tow an 8' Avon roundtail.
I wouldn't be taking nervous or inexperienced people out in anything other than light weather, especially if I were inexperienced too.

Do you ferry everything out to the boat or just get the boat to a jetty and load up there? What do you do with the dingy when the boat is moored? Do you leave the outboard on while towing?

 

[DownWest]

Do you ferry everything out to the boat or just get the boat to a jetty and load up there? What do you do with the dingy when the boat is moored? Do you leave the outboard on while towing?

This is going back a bit, but might help.
We cruised and raced a lightweight 27ft after a 20ft. The same O/B was used for the tender and the mothership. Always on a mooring and just ferried everything with the plywood 8ft tender. If racing, we left it on the mooring, if not, we towed it or put it on the foredeck for longer, i.e. cross channel. This was in an era when inflatables were quite pricey, Marinas were virtually non-existant, so moorings were the norm. I would not leave the O/B on the towed dinghy except in mild weather, which seems what you are planning for.

 

[FL390]

I was in a very similar situation to yourself. Brighton nearest marina, did a day skipper a decade ago but not much since, and wanted a boat to learn and advance my skills on. With a young family and shift work I barely have time to sail let alone maintenance! I bought my first boat in April this year. Similar goal of cross channel.

A few things I’ve learnt along my short journey.......I would love to have a Centaur (or a couple of others around the 26’ mark). However Premier marinas (Brighton) have a small boat rate at max 6.5m, it is around £2100 and anything bigger adds £800 or so to your berthing fees. If I remember correctly Newhaven was a touch more expensive??? Additionaly Premier give you 42 visitor nights at their other marinas, which is comforting when trying to get your boat purchase back to Brighton during short weather windows.

Limited by the size issue above I quite fancied a Corribee. In the end I bought a boat that is about as maintenance free as one can possibly get (Beneteau 210). And I still haven’t had time to do the few minor things I want to on that! I’m really pleased I bought the boat I did and now understand why they say buy the best possible example of the boat you can afford, let someone else do the hard work.

I think the only slipway around these parts is Newhaven, I can’t rember why I concluded it wasn’t viable but it would likely have been cost or tidal access.

Outboard wins for me, certainly at this size yacht. Diesels at the lower price points seem to be a bit of a gamble.

Brighton sailing area is really dull, being fast enough to get to the Solent on a single tide is worthy of consideration.

Of all the little compromises of having a small boat, no anchor locker, no head, no nav station, the thing I miss the most is no heater.

I hope that gives you a little food for thought.

 

[pperrin]

That sounds like an interesting alternative approach... I'll need to work that one through... I had originally imagined a boat on a pontoon in Brighton marina - but if that isn't on the cards, maybe a different approach is needed (as you outline) rather than trying to 'get close' to the original ideal elsewhere...

 

[Rum Run]

Do you ferry everything out to the boat or just get the boat to a jetty and load up there? What do you do with the dingy when the boat is moored? Do you leave the outboard on while towing?

I ferry everything out having inflated the flubber ( technical term!) on the public hard. I tend to sail alone though so don't have to make more than one trip. The Avon can take three plus some kit but two people will get damp about the nethers unless wearing waterproofs . I always use a life jacket in the dinghy as this is generally the most dangerous part of the trip after driving down there.
If towing any distance I remove the outboard and clamp it onto a pad on the pushpit. In fact that engine will move the "big" boat even though it only is a Seagull Featherweight producing about 1hp, though not very fast obviously.
Sometimes I leave the dinghy on my mooring, and sometimes I'll tow it, depending on where I'm going. If racing or definitely going into a marina it stays on the mooring, if going up a creek or generally being Swallows and Amazons I'll tow it.