Which "breathable" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

[Santana379]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

Trouville

If you're in the Med, and you've got a sheltered helm position, then I would've thought lightweight breathables are what you need. I believe they make them for Caribean type sailors. If you're cold you can then put on layers underneath.

I was recently told they can be cheaply acquired from Helly Hansen's seconds shop, at a factory outlet shopping centre somewhere near Banbury/Bicester?

 

[BlueChip]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

[ QUOTE ]
Some one on the forum gave me details of a supplier for JAGG
breathable suit for about £130 which appears to be very good
I will look for more details

Regards Briani

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Jagg are sold by Spindrift Marine in Essex - we both bought a suit last year and they are excellent IMHO as good as Musto at about 50% the pprice
They have a whole showroom of end of line and seconds and sell last years colours Musto gear for huge savings. They always have a tent at the Beallieu boat jumble
Worth a trip

Spindrift Marine
Unit 4, 57 Brunel Road, Manor Trading Estate, Benfleet, Essex, SS7 4PS.
Telephone: 01268 754180
Fax: 01268 566156

 

[AlexL]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

Water vapour molecules (H2O) are smaller than air molecules (O2 and N2 primarily), a breathable material is effectively a small sieve with holes small enough to let the water molecules through, but not the air. Liquid water molecules are bonded to each other via Hydrogen bonds and will not go through a hole which a single water vapour molecule will go through.
The upshot of all this is that a perfect 'breathable' material will let water vapour flow through but not air and not liquid water. The reason vapour goes from the inside out is to do with 'vapour pressure' - basically there is more vapour inside the jacket than out (because of your sweat) and vapour (all gasses) try to equalise the partial pressure by flowing from the area of high vapour to the area of low.

On the origonal subject, I have a Gill Key West Which is very good. The XM breathables looked good when I looked at them at LIBS.
I would rate good quality clothing as close to the No 1 safety Item on the boat. Its worth spending good money on a decent set of oileys, if you are warm and dry then mistakes are less likely to happen.

 

[Forbsie]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

Couldn't remember their name this morning and spent ages trying to Google for it unsuccessfully. Love their Website. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[steve_l]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

Baltic sailing...

Early season = May-time. The sea ice has probably melted through April but the water will still be COLD! So the sea air will be cold also just after that...
Don't usually get so many raging storms but thunder-storms can appear very quickly.
So, cold but not long-term wet.

I have an old (10yrs) Gill non-breathing suit to keep the wet out. Don't use it so often but it's important to wear the right stuff under it. Polypropylene 1st layer, then microfleece layer, then 2nd fleece layer if it's really needed.
It tends to get wet inside if I wear normal cotton/wool clothes.

I also have a locally made general wear "winter" suit which is both water&wind-proof, warm and breathable. This is ok for most situations. Many people I know here use the same outer clothes for summer sailing when it's cold and wet as they do for normal outdoor winter wear. Also good for those shopping trips ashore!

Of course, serious competition sailors here use the good quality breathables because non-breathable can't cope with the sweat generated by hard winch grinding etc.

And at the end of a cold days sailing there is often the possiblity (in Sweden & Finland anyway) to take a nice hot sauna if you're moored in one of the many visitor harbours... Good way to warm up if you got cold during the day (no smutty comments from the other forumites, please...).

Just now is the time when the local shops are selling off their winter stock to make way for the summer stock. So many bargains to be had... ~150€ (~£100) for the "winter" suit. Prices are generally cheaper here for that kind of stuff anyway because it's not specialist gear, just normal everyday winter clothes... so it might be better to wait until you get here before you buy anything...

-steve-

 

[trouville]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

I dident think of that!! But yes perhaps ill find something there,ill be there towards the end of april snow and ice permiting!

I asked my daughter about snowboard jackets, and she said that they breath keep the snow out but if she wears it in the rain all day its not water proof at all and cost 150Euros and in the sale 100euros,!! Ski/Snowboard jackets crossed off list.

Ill bookmark that link to spindrift, and wait untill i get to Sweden! Now where would offer the best sale reduction Denmark, Sweden or Finnland??? If anyone says Norway ill have to see how much the train fare costs for shopping experdition!!
And what about Poland?? im planning a trip there by ferry anyway???

 

[Das_Boot]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

I went out with a friend (now enemy) the other day. I thought that my wet suite would make an excellent first layer. After struggling into it over my winter fat layer I put a few more layers on top. I have never been so toasty. I sweated up so much that after a whole days sail I had not needed to go to the toilet. When I did I couldnt extract myself from the wetsuite in time. When I finally pulled it off it was like a sponge definiatly not breathable, but warm.

 

[Guest]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

[ QUOTE ]
SimonCr would you know where the ferries to Poland leave from Sweden or Finnland? any idea how long the journy is? and what it costs very roughly as i havent a clue!!

In poland apart from sausage and bier!!! is there anything that i must buy for sailing????Though i cant think of anything i will need?? And will i be able to be a tourist for a week? or have prices with the Euro skyrocketed???

Dare i ask if there is anything to see in Poland!!!!AH i should ask which of the many things to see should i first visit??

[/ QUOTE ]

To see in Poland? For cities, Krakow is unbeatable - undoubtedly one of Europe's finest gems. Warsaw is not very pretty. Gdansk, I haven't been there for years, but I think it's an unexpectedly pleasant town. For countryside, the Mazurian lakes and the Tatra mountains are the places to go. For entertainment, Krakow is the place - they say nearly 300 bars and cafes around the main square alone, many excellent restaurants with excellent food, and very cheap indeed /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I would say that the bars are the best I have seen anywhere in Europe. You can see why I live here!

Ferries to Poland go from several places - at least from Gdansk to Nynashamn. Also to Karlskrona (from Szczeczin???) But it's easier and cheaper to fly - the budget airline Wizzair fly from Nykoping (they call it Stockholm, but it's quite a way from there) to Warsaw, Gdansk and Katowice (nr. Krakow), and also from Malmo to Warsaw - http://www.wizzair.com

 

[Guest]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

[ QUOTE ]
The upshot of all this is that a perfect 'breathable' material will let water vapour flow through but not air and not liquid water.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess GoreTex is not 'perfect' in that sense then because as I say you can feel a breeze passing through the bivvy bag. Perhaps the tolerances of the membrane are not regulated to such a close molecular level? Also, it is possible to breathe while sleeping with it fully zipped up without suffocating, although it certainly gets stuffy like that!

 

[Guest]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

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IMHO, most problems with breathable kit come from wearing the wrong things underneath. To do the job properly, you need breathable from the skin out, and not absorbant (eg cotton), which tends to become clammy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, cotton is best avoided because of its absorbency. But also beware of all the marketing hype around high tech materials. I lived in Russia for 7 years, and could always spot visitors shivering in their expensive high-tech jackets - Russians would be cosy in their down jackets and furs, wool jumpers etc.

Of course a boat is a bit different because it's a wet environment, and while synthetic materials don't have very good thermal qualities while dry, they often absorb less moisture. But a woollen jumper like a guernsey is not very water absorbent and if it gets damp dries out quickly from body warmth. It is much warmer than a polar fleece.

IMHO the best thermal underwear is silk. More comfortable than the synthetic ones, and I think warmer. But more expensive.

Down jackets are fantastically warm, but after a couple of days on a boat they start to get heavy with absorbed moisture. So they're great for a weekend, but no longer. Of course if it's below zero, then they can't be beaten!

 

[trouville]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

As ill be in Poland during August/start September i hope i can travell with just light air weight things?Or perhaps i will try to arrive for mid end september after leaving her for her(FB) winter rest

Now i just hope that The planes Ferries are not full.

 

[BrendanS]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

standard gore-tex membranes should be entirely windproof. The measurement of windproofness is the c.f.m. or cubic feet per minute of airflow through the fabric (according to strict lab criteria). Totally windproof is 0. A wind resistant fabric would be rated maybe 15.

Fabric of 5 would be regarded as windproof, as no wind would be felt inside, and many modern breathable fabrics have this rating.

However, Gore-tex is rated 0 to 1 (depending on the actual type of Gore-tex, there are several), so is effectively totally windproof.

What I suspect you are feeling is convection effects on the air inside the bag, due to the temperature differential between outside and inside, or air coming in via the face opening. There can be no wind coming through the fabric unless it is punctured.

 

[Superstrath]

You\'re right, Brendan.

I used to be a licenced Gore-Tex clothing manufacturer, and have been through their manufacturing plant on more than one occasion. You can't breathe or blow through it. It's essentially ptfe, like plumber's tape. The clever bit is that they can make the membrane adhere to the carrier product, either a lining or the inside of the outer material.
I'm happy to say that the product is good: but to the end user it is hideously overpriced. There are many alternatives, from hydrophylic coatings (ok) to competitor membranes (fine, in many cases excellent). The strange thing is that the price differential is so huge between them- Gore has the image. I think that buying two or three sets of alternatives is more sensible over time, since the outer, the lining and so on will all be of similar material, and will wear at similar rates. The Goretex itself (only a membrane you can't see) may well outlive them but what's the use of that? Buy loose fitting, and layer-up with appropriate fibres, and you will be fine, in any conditions.
Talbot, you and me both don't need waterproofs much, except for the walk to the pub!

Alistair

 

[Guest]

Re: You\'re right, Brendan.

My apologies, I stand corrected. It is certainly my strong impression that my GoreTex jacket is colder than the other. As I mentioned in another post, it is possible that the GoreTex on this jacket is defective - in heavy rain after a couple of hours it becomes very damp inside as well as out (not just around the seams, it feels as though the entire fabric is saturated). My non-GoreTex jacket stays pretty dry inside by comparison, despite condensation. I must say I haven't had this problem with another (old) GoreTex jacket that I have for mountaineering.

For what it is worth, the bivvy bag is an early example of GoreTex - bought around 1986. It has lasted surprisingly well (although the seams seriously leak now).

 

[Guest]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

At least here in south Poland it should still be nice and warm in September /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif But if late September it's best to bring a jacket just in case. The summers are pretty hot, winters rather cold, and not very much in between.

 

[Superstrath]

Re: You\'re right, Brendan.

On a product which is to be labelled "Waterproof", the Gore-Tex is seam-sealed with a hot-applied sealing tape. On their "Windstopper" product - fabulous fleece jackets - the same stuff, stuck between two layers of fleece, is not seam-sealed - so the seams allow water and a little wind though.
Gore-Tex have a major share of the fire-fighter's clothing market. That kit must stand stupid temperatures while allowing the body vapour out, and must also accommodate cold-weather, rainy, cat-up-tree rescues while still allowing comfort. It works, is probably the best, but is not alone in providing this. (Sympatex, LdP Proline)
I wear an ancient Splashdown jacket with drop-liner, harness and integral lifejacket. I don't get wet, cold, hot or uncomfortable, but it's as much to do with the layering as anything else. I resent the retail price of the "better" quality items these days - I know what they cost to make and to market. Once it is past it, I will go to a two-yearly change on a cheaper brand.
My salopettes we made in the factory using one of the Gore competitor's products -and fire-fighter's insulation layers. They are great. Dry, breathable, warm, cool, you name it.

Alistair

 

[Guest]

Re: You\'re right, Brendan.

Yup, the seams seem fine, but it's the Offshore jacket & trousers, which are almost-top-of-the-range, so should hopefully have the more expensive seams.

My more general point is that GoreTex, while it can be nice to have, is not really necessary in yachting, where there's not often much prolonged physical activity to get sweaty over. The main concern is keeping out green waves and prolonged rain. Gore Tex is fantastic stuff if you're slogging up hills with a rucksack though.

 

[Sailfree]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

I think the subject of the materials is slightly more complex than already written about here. I remember reading that in the early days when they tried Gore-Tex at sea it had problems due to the naughty addition of salt to the water. A lot of development went in to solving the problem. Gore- tex I believe cracked the problem by further development of their fabric and as first on the market patented it and charge a premium for the offshore fabric (and the onshore one!). The offshore fabric is not necessarily the same fabric as for snowboarding, mountaineering,etc. Obviously all the manufacturers would like to reduce costs, sell more and make even more money so have been trying other equivalent materials to Gore-Tex. I believe Gill have a cheaper equivalent.
My problem is that while I realise I am paying a premium for the name Gore -Tex and cheaper equiivalents may exist do I want to spend say £300 and take a chance on how equivalent it is when I know that say £500 guarantees the result.

 

[Superstrath]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

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My problem is that while I realise I am paying a premium for the name Gore -Tex and cheaper equiivalents may exist do I want to spend say £300 and take a chance on how equivalent it is when I know that say £500 guarantees the result.

[/ QUOTE ]
"Take a chance"? What result? You stay dry? That's dead easy. Spending 200 quid more than 300 quid sounds crazy to me. IMHO.

Alistair

 

[aitchw]

Re: Which \"breathable\" Jacket ,Why breathable?????

It's all a bit beyond my ken. People are talking about spending as much on foul weather gear as I did to buy my boat. Choices between spending £300 or £500 are entirely academic as far as I am concerned.