Where to keep it and what to do with it?

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As some may know, I'm looking at getting a 25' fin keel cruising yacht, my first cruising boat. This has led me to consider more deeply the question of moorings, of beaching, and legs. I'm based up the Mersey so my sailing grounds will range from Anglesey up the Northwest coast as far as Scotland (when I'm feeling really adventurous).

My first question is what are good places to look for moorings?

It's a real shame the Mersey is so unfavourable, and I hear Liverpool Marina is extortionate! Are there any moorings still available in North Wales? (I say 'still available' as I imagine they're very popular.) Should I consider places like Southport or Preston?

Second, how good are legs, really?

I hear and read a lot of people claiming that bilge keel boats the best thing since bread came pre-sliced, but other than fitting the legs, I don't see how life is very much simpler for the bilge keeler. He still has to be sure of the slope beneath him, has to know the ground is solid and not quicksand, still has to worry about wave action while drying out and refloating (or wakes caused by local traffic), still has to worry about coming down on a rock or a shopping trolley... and so on.

So, as a fin keeler, why shouldn't I be able to go most of the places bilge keelers visit? And is there a preferred design of leg, or a particular type that one should definitely avoid?

Sorry, these questions are fairly broad. I'm trawling for information!

Cheers
 
Forget Preston, it's miles from the sea. There are no moorings at Southport although you can dry out on the River Alt down the coast. Loads of buoys which dry and don't dry available on the Menai Strait. Have a look on the Caernarfon Harbour Trust website. I visited every port from Whitehaven to Pwllheli before choosing Conwy, I am now in Victoria Dock in Caernarfon
 
I have telescopic aluminium beaching legs that work well on my lift keel 33ft yacht. They're from the Yacht Leg Company any even at secondhand prices were a considerable investment.

I use them for annual maintenance rather than permanent mooring. I would say that whilst very sturdy, they are clearly nowhere near as robust as bilge keels. The particular weakness that worries me is that a boat moored by the bows may experience a wind shift whilst grounded, and swing round to face the new direction whilst refloating. This then runs the risk of one if the legs snagging in the mooring gear.
If the boat is somewhere sheltered enough to be moored fore and aft, legs become more practical as a permanent system.
 
Bilge vs fin - like much of life the choice isnt black and white. They say fins are faster but comparing similar hulls ( eg sadler 29 fin and bilge) the average difference is small. Most monohulls are slow anyway. And yes you can take to the ground in a fin with legs, always assuming that the ground concerned is reasonably hard and even. You can take to much worse ground in a bilge but even then landing on a shopping trolley or similar metal rubbish isnt to be recommended.

You can sum it up by saying that the bilge gives you greater flexibility at the expense of slower speeds
 
I've never seen a fin keeler that regularly dries out on legs, i.e. with no one on board. With a twin keel boat there are mooring options on the Dee, the Alt, Rhyl, Rhos on sea - all closer and cheaper than Menai moorings. Depending on how you intend to use the boat, you could keep a fin afloat at Fiddlers Ferry cheaply but it's effectively a full day to get to open sea and then only on springs.
 
I would say that for coastal cruising in NW England a boat that can't take the ground is close to being a liability as most of the harbours dry and there are few sheltered deep water anchorages. North Wales is somewhat better in this regard than the Lancashire and Cumbria coasts. Between the Mersey and the Solway, Piel Roads near Barrow is the only reasonably sheltered deep water anchorage I can think of.

I've been cruising this region for 20 years. From my personal experience and from observation of others I reckon that much (most?) of the cruising here is done under engine, motor sailing or just motoring. It's a long lee shore with few harbours almost all of which have limited tidal access windows (e.g. just the hour preceding HW at Glasson) and/or long and intricate approaches through outlying sandbanks. You can't mess about, you have to get in while there's water so on goes the engine. My advice therefore is to get a sturdy bilge-keeler with a good engine.

I've no personal experience with beaching legs but I've heard of a number of unpleasant experiences with them and agree with Kelpie that they're more suitable for sheltered fore and aft moorings where the boat can be relied on to settle down on the same bit of ground with every tide.
 
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JimC said:
I would say that for coastal cruising in the NW UK a boat that can't take the ground is close to being a liability as most of the harbours dry and there are few sheltered deep water anchorages. North Wales is somewhat better in this regard than the Lancashire and Cumbria coasts. Between the Mersey and the Solway, Piel Roads near Barrow is the only reasonably sheltered deep water anchorage I can think of.

I've been cruising this region for 20 years. From my personal experience and from observation of others I reckon that much (most?) of the cruising here is done under engine, motor sailing or just motoring. It's a long lee shore with few harbours almost all of which have limited tidal access windows (e.g. just the hour preceding HW at Glasson) and/or long and intricate approaches through outlying sandbanks. You can't mess about, you have to get in while there's water so on goes the engine. My advice therefore is to get a sturdy bilge-keeler with a good engine.

I've no personal experience with beaching legs but I've heard of a number of unpleasant experiences with them and agree with Kelpie that they're more suitable for sheltered fore and aft moorings where the boat can be relied on to settle down on the same bit of ground with every tide.
Click to expand...

I presume you mean NW England rather than NW UK?

It's worth having a look at Vyv Cox's writings on the use of yacht legs, on his website. Quite a sight to see a Sadler 34 perched on what look like fairly spindly appendages. Yachts have a lower centre of gravity than it seems, so actually legs can be perfectly stable, and in use should have little load on them. However I maintain that for a fin keeler on a swing mooring legs should only be used with considerable caution, for the reasons mentioned above.
 
Scotland is on my wish list, certainly. I'd like to do a couple of longer trips up to Galloway and maybe Arran (which is about as far as I think I can get before having to dump the boat on a mooring somewhere and get the train home!). How would a fin fair in those parts?

I accept your recommendation for a bilge keeler but this boat more or less fell into my lap, and it's a good deal materially, financially and for other reasons. However, if I don't get this one, then I'll go looking with more specific requirements in mind. The other day I thought I'd spotted an abandoned Centaur but on closer inspection it turned out to be a Pembroke!
 
Quiddle said:
I've never seen a fin keeler that regularly dries out on legs, i.e. with no one on board. With a twin keel boat there are mooring options on the Dee, the Alt, Rhyl, Rhos on sea - all closer and cheaper than Menai moorings. Depending on how you intend to use the boat, you could keep a fin afloat at Fiddlers Ferry cheaply but it's effectively a full day to get to open sea and then only on springs.
Click to expand...


Yes, that is a downside to Fiddlers. I wonder if they really will open up the Sankey canal, again? There was more muttering about it last year. I think if they do, it means the power station is doomed to become a housing estate with expensive three or four storey flats lining that side of the canal, which will probably drive up mooring prices along with the desirability of the area. But... you'll be able to get down to Spike in no time, which might just make a day trip from Fiddlers to the mouth of the estuary worth it.
 
Kelpie said:
I have telescopic aluminium beaching legs that work well on my lift keel 33ft yacht. They're from the Yacht Leg Company any even at secondhand prices were a considerable investment.

I use them for annual maintenance rather than permanent mooring. I would say that whilst very sturdy, they are clearly nowhere near as robust as bilge keels. The particular weakness that worries me is that a boat moored by the bows may experience a wind shift whilst grounded, and swing round to face the new direction whilst refloating. This then runs the risk of one if the legs snagging in the mooring gear.
If the boat is somewhere sheltered enough to be moored fore and aft, legs become more practical as a permanent system.
Click to expand...

Yes, I noticed that company. Definitely not cheap! But neither is rolling your boat... :ambivalence:

I suppose legs would simplify life a lot, if you didn't have to organise a cradle every time you craned out. Is there anything that you can't do, maintenance wise, on legs? For safety reasons?
 
Deep fin keels are generally fine on the west coast of Scotland. I've only gone for a lift keel and legs so that I can dry her out at the bottom of my croft.
Legs are great for maintenance- you get much better access than with a cradle. The only thing I can't do is inspect the lifting keel.
 
Deep fin keels are generally fine on the west coast of Scotland. I've only gone for a lift keel and legs so that I can dry her out at the bottom of my croft.
Legs are great for maintenance- you get much better access than with a cradle. The only thing I can't do is inspect the lifting keel.
 
I've got a Hurley 18, which is long keel boat. It has a pair of beaching legs which I use mainly during the winter on a half tide berth up Devoran Creek. They work fine there, as the berth is a concrete pad with no holes and the fore and aft lines keep her in place.
I was offered a winter berth on a mooring in Mylor Creek but turned it down as it was a single point mooring which dried at low tide. It was impossible to gauge where the boat would end up and what the ground was like and I had visions of coming to the boat to discover her on her side in the mud due to an undiscovered hole or soft spot.
So what? Unless you can identify a fore and aft drying mooring, I'd go for a bilge keel boat. If you go for a fin keel boat, then you need a full tide swinging mooring. There are plenty about but they're mainly at Conway or in the Menai: a fair step from Liverpool but doable. We used to live just outside Chester and kept the boat on a mooring in the Menai. Took us about 90 minutes to get there, be about the same for you via the tunnel, M53 and then cut across to Queesferry and the A55.
 
Kelpie said:
Deep fin keels are generally fine on the west coast of Scotland. I've only gone for a lift keel and legs so that I can dry her out at the bottom of my croft.
Legs are great for maintenance- you get much better access than with a cradle. The only thing I can't do is inspect the lifting keel.
Click to expand...

Legs for maintenance - I think I'll bump them up the purchase/build/acquire list! Don't want to be renting a yard cradle for longer than I have to. Many tiny cuts add up to a big bleed.

Also good to hear fins are okay around Scotland. That's really where I want to go.
 
duncan99210 said:
I've got a Hurley 18, which is long keel boat. It has a pair of beaching legs which I use mainly during the winter on a half tide berth up Devoran Creek. They work fine there, as the berth is a concrete pad with no holes and the fore and aft lines keep her in place.
I was offered a winter berth on a mooring in Mylor Creek but turned it down as it was a single point mooring which dried at low tide. It was impossible to gauge where the boat would end up and what the ground was like and I had visions of coming to the boat to discover her on her side in the mud due to an undiscovered hole or soft spot.
So what? Unless you can identify a fore and aft drying mooring, I'd go for a bilge keel boat. If you go for a fin keel boat, then you need a full tide swinging mooring. There are plenty about but they're mainly at Conway or in the Menai: a fair step from Liverpool but doable. We used to live just outside Chester and kept the boat on a mooring in the Menai. Took us about 90 minutes to get there, be about the same for you via the tunnel, M53 and then cut across to Queesferry and the A55.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your advice. Like I said earlier, this boat fell into my lap, fin keel and all. Maybe I'll tart her up and flip her for a cheap Centaur that needs work... time, and availability of candidate boats, will tell.

P.S. I checked out your blog. Killing fish with alcohol? Must remember that one! And projecting a movie onto the main? That sounds brilliant. Could also do that in an anchorage if using headphones (to avoid annoying the locals). Movie projectors should be standard equipment on all sailing boats!

Cheers
 
I would thoroughly recommend Holyhead sailing club and their moorings.
Conwy river moorings are ok but tide restricted. It also takes a while before you are out of the channel etc.
It takes 40 mins longer to drive to Holyhead but with the excellent launch service you can be on your boat in 10 mins and sailing in 20 at anytime of the day!
I have a Rival 31 for sale with mounting points for legs although I ditched the legs years ago. Boat is in RHYL.
 
If you are considering a regular dry out moring with a fin keel, please go try it out first. I couldn't possibly imagine that's a good idea. One or two odd bilge keels have found it's way to Norway, but they are really a curiosity here. But I get the point. If you don't have a mooring or a berth in deep water, you need a bilge keel. Anything else does not seem like a good idea to me.

-But then here we have 30 cm tides, and I fixed up an old lady's private pier for less than £500, two days playing with me tools in the sun, and a case of beer to make it more interesting! For it all I got a three year deal to use her pier as my own. And no, marinas are not cheap around Oslo....
 
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