Where have all the good women gone?

[flaming]

anyone who is under any doubt at all about the skewed nature of British sailing represention in the media, I did a tally up a while back for YW for men and women seen in print to be actively taking part in sailing (not just staring whistfully out of a window, or making a boat look pretty by wearing a bikini)
if you are robust in nature and can handle very strong language, then have a look at the results of the count: http://www.boogie-nights.org/2017/09/hold-my-beer-minute.html

I do agree with your analysis of the state of play in the marine industry. And I am very pleased that YW now use the most awesome sailor I know (male or female), Pip Hare, to do a lot of their reviews and write some great articles on a number of subjects.

But... I do wonder if your ire is slightly misplaced... A lot of things you mention are actually in the adds placed by companies, not the articles and editorial written by YW itself. That does indicate possibly a bigger issue, that the brands still think that bikini clad women draped over boats is the way to sell them.... But I'm not so sure that so much of the blame lands on YW.

Elsewhere, I think the last Volvo Ocean race got it right. Instead of the all female boat of previous races - which, as the amount of experience on board was so much less (because of the lack of previous opportunities....) than the rest of the fleet, inevitably came last, here we had women scattered throughout the fleet, proving their worth as skipper, helm, navigator, bow etc on the top boats in arguably the closest VOR ever. No longer can it be said by even the biggest bigot that women have no place on the top ocean racers.

 

[flaming]

This and the blog in the previous post are examples of the excessive and pitiful manifestation of feminism. It sees misogyny and male sexism coming in all directions all at once, raining down from the sky and erupting from the ground. The solution to this, so the feminist mantra goes is that there is to be the expectation of equality. Equality of outcomes and there will be equal representation of women and men in all places. So you get the positive discrimination process I mentioned above.

I get Yachting World and it has clearly applied positive discrimination to its editorial control. The changes are massive to the extent of over representing the female participation and forcing a false and attempted brainwashing representation of gender roles, yet they cannot do enough to satisfy the extreme feminist misandrist types. It's complete madness.

As a man...

Can I just say that you are utterly delusional.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

As a white, heterosexual, able-bodied, atheist male there isn't a single network group I can attach myself to. So I go sailing instead.

I could go on about white male privilege however that's going a bit deep. However if you needed a support group you could go and start one instead of wingeing about lack of one - mens groups aren't that rare or exotic in the 21st. On the other hand, I suspect that if like many male sailors you are essentially asocial and solitary, sailing alone is a good solution.

As a climber and sailor, I for one would like to encourage more women into these pass times, if only to have a change from some of the boorish behaviour of some of the older males

 

[Hacker]

As a man...

Can I just say that you are utterly delusional.

+1

 

[JumbleDuck]

+1

+2

 

[JumbleDuck]

I could go on about white male privilege however that's going a bit deep. However if you needed a support group you could go and start one instead of wingeing about lack of one - mens groups aren't that rare or exotic in the 21st.

I am a member of my local men's shed, which is part of a movement set up originally to promote social interaction and reduce isolation amongst older men. We have a couple of women members too!

 

[dom]

I think it's hard to use so much bad language and not pollute the content. Not so sure about a post you linked a year or so ago.

This one is free, flowy, quick, and fun. Well done

Now a quick test on your test so to speak: asked a few people here in the office for an opinion (mostly male).

To be fair their responses contained just as many swear words, so I'll summarise: "good value", and that you sound like "great value on a night out!"

Keep going and ignore the whinger(s) - I use the plural here as they just scrape across the line to that esteemed status

well, well, well.
Did someone rattle my cage?

...anyone who is under any doubt at all about the skewed nature of British sailing represention in the media, I did a tally up a while back for YW for men and women seen in print to be actively taking part in sailing (not just staring whistfully out of a window, or making a boat look pretty by wearing a bikini)
if you are robust in nature and can handle very strong language, then have a look at the results of the count: http://www.boogie-nights.org/2017/09/hold-my-beer-minute.html

 

[Angele]

I could go on about white male privilege however that's going a bit deep. However if you needed a support group you could go and start one instead of wingeing about lack of one - mens groups aren't that rare or exotic in the 21st. On the other hand, I suspect that if like many male sailors you are essentially asocial and solitary, sailing alone is a good solution.

As a climber and sailor, I for one would like to encourage more women into these pass times, if only to have a change from some of the boorish behaviour of some of the older males

Hold on a sec. Which bit of my post was whingeing? (It was all simply a statement of fact). It is often easier for people to join an existing "club" to do what they want to do. But, if there isn't one (as you suggest) you create your own. That is exactly what I have done by taking the decision to go sailing.

At my last employer I was one of the active organisers of a sailing social group. It was a good way to get like minded people together to be able to put on sailing events by sharing the cost. (The employer provided no funding for the club). I took up that position before I owned my own boat.

By the time I joined my current employer, I already owned a boat, so did not have the same need of a workplace sailing network. My employer does not have a sailing club. And the effort to create one would be significant and I feel I "did my bit" in the previous job. So, my sailing "support group" (as you put is) is like-minded friends and people I meet along the way (irrespective of race, gender, sexuality etc). For example, just invited a couple I met on a flotilla to join me on my next outing.

As for enjoying my hobby solitary, you couldn't be more wrong. The only single handing I have ever done is Hamble to Cowes to collect a crew member, and then Cowes to Hamble a couple of days later after they had left the boat. I prefer the company of others. I'm actually quite sociable.

 

[shan]

Interesting survey
did you do one of who actually bought and PAID for the magazines

in the end it is total rubbish
the magazine, like allprinted social media is biased to the market it is selling to.
girlie mags are biased to girls. Model engineering mags are biased to those in the model engineering hobby.
they do not, and never will , pander to one sex or the other unless they are a sexually orientated magazine, as in gay, girllie or male ones.
the people who buy sailing mags are probably mainly male and the editors know ( or should do) their market. They do not pander to a sector that simply is not there in sufficient quantity to make it economically viable.
if you think that showing men in mankinies will help then i would suggest that it might actually do the reverse.
if that is what you want then there are enough porn magazines to keep you occupied for a while i am sure

and may i suggest Sugar Kane- having read you short blog- swearing like a ship yard welder will never make you into a man, nor an equal to one or desirable to one ( well a decent one any way) so a change in character might get you a little better result

Have you ever considered that woman don't buy sailing magazines BECAUSE they are so skewed to a completely male perspective?

Who the hell do you think you are, assuming that Sugar Kane wants to be a man? My God, are you really that up your own backside? Just a clue, women are allowed to swear, just like we are allowed to vote and own property. Quite amazing, isn't it?

Perhaps, a change in YOUR character is what's needed? You seem to think everyone else should change to suit your views, well, guess again Buttercup...

 

[john_morris_uk]

Have you ever considered that woman don't buy sailing magazines BECAUSE they are so skewed to a completely male perspective?

Who the hell do you think you are, assuming that Sugar Kane wants to be a man? My God, are you really that up your own backside? Just a clue, women are allowed to swear, just like we are allowed to vote and own property. Quite amazing, isn't it?

Perhaps, a change in YOUR character is what's needed? You seem to think everyone else should change to suit your views, well, guess again Buttercup...

You put it so much better than me.

There really are some delusional dinosaurs on this forum.

FWIW I think the swearing bit is a complete red herring in this whole debate and misunderstanding. It’s muddying the waters about ensuring that there are positive role models in the yachting press for all genders etc to attract others into our sport.

 

[JumbleDuck]

There really are some delusional dinosaurs on this forum.

There are, I'm afraid, people who just can't accept that their lack of success (in life, at work, in love, whatever) is down to their own qualities, or lack of them. Instead it always has to be a conspiracy against them. Fourth-wave feminists. Cultural marxists. Austrian economics. Muslims. The EU. Positive discrimination. whatever. They give up on reason and their statements become a long inchoate scream of frustration and perceived betrayal by a world which owes them success.

 

[shan]

You put it so much better than me.

There really are some delusional dinosaurs on this forum.

FWIW I think the swearing bit is a complete red herring in this whole debate and misunderstanding. It’s muddying the waters about ensuring that there are positive role models in the yachting press for all genders etc to attract others into our sport.

Yes, the complaint about swearing is a red herring beause ultimately, the message remains the same and it's the message that the dinosaurs don't like, which is why they deflect the argument onto something else.

 

[Poey50]

FWIW I think the swearing bit is a complete red herring ...

Eighteenth Century ladies were generally seen as being of delicate nature needing to avoid anything more stimulating than light music, a little poetry and some sketching. So swearing is not the main point but not, I think, irrelevant as context in refusing to be a 'lady'.

 

[Fox Morgan]

The original question was where have all the good women gone? (inferring the bad ones have stayed fnar, or that there were indeed good ones to start with, double fnar)

I suggested yesterday on this thread that a lot of women are now using a facebook group instead that is locked to only women. Where they can ask questions, talk about various topics, talk about fears, worries, accidents, problems on-board, successes, jubilation at buying a boat, questions about which boat to buy, how to fix a problem, what the heck is this thing on my boat for... and so on. Very much like the YBW forum, but without being told, AT ANY POINT that the woman is stupid, inferred to that she'd like to be a man, that she's jealous of other women, that behaviour like that won't attract a man, that to join what was once a mans world she should "man up" and so on and so on. The moderators are firm but fair, the rules of the group are pretty strict in terms of not sharing outside of the group or allowing male partners to post on a woman's behalf. Women on the group are very supportive and at no point is anyone reluctant to share a story for fear of ridicule or being talked over.
That's why so many women have migrated to the group from other groups and forums.

Now take a look at the range of comments and replies in response to my reply, quite variable, some quite predictable. I'm a fairly robust person, little bothers me, hence the reason I dare stick my head above the parapet occasionally and duck the flying excrement that often comes back at me.

There was one ludicrous suggestion by a clot-hole in this thread that swearing doesn't make me a man... (cue hysterical laughter) my writing most certainly isn't gendered. It's aimed at anyone it might entertain. But mostly I write because I really enjoy writing and putting what's in my head out there for others to read. Just so happens I really do swear a lot in private. I tone it down for the blogs and remove it entirely for more serious stuff I write for other publications. I hope it strikes a chord with some people. But as my last blog post (back dated a little to March), recounting last years Rolex Middle Sea race demonstrates, I'm certainly not attempting to be perfect and occasionally there's a woman I really just can't get along with. And, yeah, the swears just keep flowing like lava from Stromboli. Goodness knows how I manage to conduct hour long academic lectures and barely utter a single expletive.

It's good to see the number of sensible folks though, out-numbers the shandy drinking toss hobbits. I doff my hat in your direction good chaps.

Those who are bleating on (off topic) about feminism as though it's a bad thing, then maybe take a look at the stats for male suicide compared to female, or the stats for older men being lonely and dying younger or living miserably as a consequence. Feminism (for me) is about redressing certain social imbalances due to expectations placed on gender. While boys are taught to man up and don't cry or that they must be strong and take care of the girls and that girls are taught that it's their job to ensure they don't become a victim and should allow themselves to be taken care of or find a good husband or always smile even if you don't want to or, always make sure you look as attractive as possible, then it will continue to be the source of a skewed society in the favour of one over the other. Men will continue to think women are primarily there to look good, be attractive, have an attractive character to find a good man, only be hired because they look good, have a nice smile etc. Look at the use of language to describe women just in this thread alone. The use of girl and girly, infantilising grown women. Various other connotations expressing dismissive language or lack of equality of people. Those people really need to have a long hard think about what they really think a woman is and how they are judged in terms of merit for work and social standing. Your personal biases and perception based on no tangible evidence of difference.

One example before I go back to work: I used to work for SuperBike. I used to write a column and various other stuff. The magazine is franchised in Italy, meaning they translated what we wrote, added a few Italian ads and bobs your uncle. Except it's not. They edited me out for 6 years. They didn't want a woman in the magazine. When I realised this (after having spoken to an apologetic sub ed), I changed my by-line to that of a male colleague, they were still my words, just a different masculine name next to it. Boom, published, no question. That was in 2007-2008 just before I left to work on another mag at IPC Media.
second example: I also have the copies of email transcripts (don't ask me how I got them) written by an ex-ex editor of yachting monthly to the then publisher in 2007, dismissing me as a female applicant for deputy editor, because readers wouldn't trust a woman. (despite owning my own boat, and having all but 4 years of my life on and around boats and having worked professionally as a journalist and photographer since the mid 90's) They were also worried I was the wrong age... (this is double speak for likely to pop babies out) (They employed a man instead, who was roughly the same age but with less experience as a journalist and less experience with boats.)
YW is different but not so much. There's a female editor and dep ed. But I'm not sure they have a huge amount of freedom to publish what they would like. YW was traditionally the shiny-golden-trophy-cabinet-baby, a loss making magazine, propped up by the sales of other yachting titles in the portfolio.

So yeah, where have the good women gone? Elsewhere, where they don't get condescended, spoken down to or explained over. It only takes one or two douchewaffles to make sensible women go elsewhere for the social/sailing interaction.
I'm not all that sensible, or good, so you got me still. I'm that sweary maverick writer who isn't afraid of the offence brigade, nor do I have to kowtow to old ham faced hairy nosed bosses in the publishing industry.

 

[shan]

Well said.

 

[Hacker]

Well said as well. For me it’s a bit of a shame that you (and others) have had to resort to a closed group as it does deny us the opportunity to interact. Having spent all my working life in the NHS I really can’t understand the views of some of my fellow men (if they are shocked by your blog then they want to be party to some of our work conversations).

 

[JumbleDuck]

I also have the copies of email transcripts (don't ask me how I got them) written by an ex-ex editor of yachting monthly to the then publisher in 2007, dismissing me as a female applicant for deputy editor, because readers wouldn't trust a woman. (despite owning my own boat, and having all but 4 years of my life on and around boats and having worked professionally as a journalist and photographer since the mid 90's) They were also worried I was the wrong age... (this is double speak for likely to pop babies out) (They employed a man instead, who was roughly the same age but with less experience as a journalist and less experience with boats.)

Bloody. Hell. (And that's swearing). Did you think of taking them to a tribunal?

 

[flaming]

Here's a picture of us just after finishing the IRC nationals a few years ago. An event that only briefly had winds under 25 knots, and an event that we won against a very competitive fleet. This is probably the best crew I've ever sailed with. Between them the women on that crew have more Atlantic crossings than I can count, and they've all crossed at least once, major championship wins in dinghy classes and god knows how many professional sailing qualifications. One of them is also a former Kitesurfing European champion.

If anyone tells me that women don't want to sail when it's a bit rough, or that it's really a man's sport, or any of that sort of crap, I say come and take this crew on in heavy weather. You will lose. It is absolutely the very best thing about sailing, and racing in particular, that we get to sail in mixed crews with the best people regardless of age or gender.

But are any of them on the forums? Nope... And this thread is a perfect illustration of why...

Something I've noticed recently is that there are more women than ever replying to "crew wanted" adds. The last add I put out female replies outnumbered male, with a range of experiences from "seriously badass boat owning sailing addict with a free weekend" to "just done comp crew and want to try racing". I think the word is getting out, this is fast becoming a very welcoming and inclusive sport, and the sooner the old Dinosaurs realise that and bugger off the better.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Well said as well. For me it’s a bit of a shame that you (and others) have had to resort to a closed group as it does deny us the opportunity to interact.

On the good side, it's great to hear that women sailors have somewhere they can go for support. On the bad side, it's a disgrace and an embarrassment that a closed group is needed for that.

 

[JumbleDuck]

But are any of them on the forums? Nope... And this thread is a perfect illustration of why...

Absolutely. The problem is that for all the welcoming friendly people here, it just takes one paranoid twit with a chip on his shoulder to put people off.

Something I've noticed recently is that there are more women than ever replying to "crew wanted" adds. The last add I put out female replies outnumbered male, with a range of experiences from "seriously badass boat owning sailing addict with a free weekend" to "just done comp crew and want to try racing". I think the word is getting out, this is fast becoming a very welcoming and inclusive sport, and the sooner the old Dinosaurs realise that and bugger off the better.

Good, and hear-hear.