Where have all the good women gone?

[Fox Morgan]

Bloody. Hell. (And that's swearing). Did you think of taking them to a tribunal?

No, I didn't want to get my informant and friend sacked. I did keep it though, as evidence should I ever need it. In the end I took a handsome payout as severance a few years down the line. It paid for an entirely new rig and sails, plus a few other fancy bits on Boogie Nights.

oh, additionally, I also have in the same conversation transcript how they would use my feature series idea presented at interview. (my idea was based on the TopGear smashing up a Hilux a year or so before, to take an expendable boat and put it through various experiments, such as dismasting, running aground, knock downs, fire etc.) They poo-poo'd the idea to my face saying the readers wouldn't be interested in that sort of thing.

er...
crash test boat anyone? I thankyouverymuch.

 

[flaming]

oh, additionally, I also have in the same conversation transcript how they would use my feature series idea presented at interview. (my idea was based on the TopGear smashing up a Hilux a year or so before, to take an expendable boat and put it through various experiments, such as dismasting, running aground, knock downs, fire etc.) They poo-poo'd the idea to my face saying the readers wouldn't be interested in that sort of thing.

er...
crash test boat anyone? I thankyouverymuch.

Bloody hell.... I had some small involvement with that project, mostly to do with the boat appearing at the Shows, and there was no doubt who was taking all the credit for it.

 

[dom]

Absolutely. The problem is that for all the welcoming friendly people here, it just takes one paranoid twit with a chip on his shoulder to put people off.

Is there there not an infinitely more positive narrative emerging here? It is a totally different feeling walking into a bar with a couple of idiots sitting in the corner compared to a bar populated by them.

FWIW I count as BAME after googling it (BTW who comes up with these cretinous acronyms?) and there is always the odd person out there with an issue. That in turn doesn't reflect badly on British society, which I at least find A1-Fab.

By extension this community seems to merit the A1-Fab badge, even if there are a couple more misogynists lurking in the woodwork.

And judging by the thorough mauling the two-with-attitude received from our womenfolk, I'm not too sure even they'll be back for more

Or is that all too Disney?


Edit to Sugar Kane: apols for sloppy grammar such as using 'womenfolk' preceded by 'our' and 'good women'. The former implies no possession and the latter I used as a positive if sloppy collective noun, not a class :ambivalence:

 

[rotrax]

Hi Sugar Kane-I wonder if you knew my old mate Badger-Brian Crichton. He was an IPC stalwart for many years.

I first met him when I got involved with a Motorcycle Mechanics gig wher they featured my Kawasaki F1 engine going through the LEDAR treatment with that well known tuner Leon Moss at Peterborough. He more than doubled the horsepower without much more than a camshaft regrind and a set of bigger carbs.

I know the $H1t that goes on in publishing houses-I worked in the Tech Services department of KMUK for seven years and heard many bad stories first hand from active snappers and journo's involved in the bike magazine business. Tough game.

Did you know macd? Great guy with a motorbike and a camera. I rate him and Garry Johnstone at the pinnacle of their profession.

Thanks for the Bukh handbook you sent me-most appreciated. I owe you a drink.

On our boat First Mate does all the steering and manouvering when picking up a mooring or going alongside.

She does it very well too-better than many guys I know could manage.

In 1973 she and I were watching the sidecars at the hairpin during the Vintage Race of the Year at Mallory Park. After a few minutes she said " I could do that "

In 1974 she was on the grid doing it, and became a fierce competitor well respected by her male peers.

She was often asked by journo's " Why dont more woman race motorbikes? "

She always replied " How do I know-ask other woman! "

 

[Fox Morgan]

If anyone tells me that women don't want to sail when it's a bit rough, or that it's really a man's sport, or any of that sort of crap, I say come and take this crew on in heavy weather. You will lose. It is absolutely the very best thing about sailing, and racing in particular, that we get to sail in mixed crews with the best people regardless of age or gender.

Totally awesome pic.

Well said as well. For me it’s a bit of a shame that you (and others) have had to resort to a closed group as it does deny us the opportunity to interact. Having spent all my working life in the NHS I really can’t understand the views of some of my fellow men (if they are shocked by your blog then they want to be party to some of our work conversations).

that's why I'm still here because the good people outnumber the dullards. I've just been a little busy lately.

Well said.

:encouragement:

Edit to SugerKane: apols for sloppy grammar such as using 'womenfolk' preceded by 'our' and 'good women'. The former implies no possession and the latter I used as a positive if sloppy collective noun, not a class :ambivalence:

:highly_amused:

 

[sailaboutvic]

Interesting survey
did you do one of who actually bought and PAID for the magazines

in the end it is total rubbish
the magazine, like allprinted social media is biased to the market it is selling to.
girlie mags are biased to girls. Model engineering mags are biased to those in the model engineering hobby.
they do not, and never will , pander to one sex or the other unless they are a sexually orientated magazine, as in gay, girllie or male ones.
the people who buy sailing mags are probably mainly male and the editors know ( or should do) their market. They do not pander to a sector that simply is not there in sufficient quantity to make it economically viable.
if you think that showing men in mankinies will help then i would suggest that it might actually do the reverse.
if that is what you want then there are enough porn magazines to keep you occupied for a while i am sure

and may i suggest Sugar Kane- having read you short blog- swearing like a ship yard welder will never make you into a man, nor an equal to one or desirable to one ( well a decent one any way) so a change in character might get you a little better result

Your unprovoked attack on me was really uncalled for in # 47 I wasn't surprise as this is what you do , going from thread to thread finding posting you don't agree with ,
Then attack the poster , here once again doing just that .
I decided it's time to let you get on with it , and leave it to the rest of the members here work out for them self the type of person you are .
You seen to made a good job without anyone help to do just that .
Time you actually contribute to these forum and not just wined people up to get your thrills.
You can go down to the pub and do that but I guess you feel safer behind a PC .

 

[JumbleDuck]

No, I didn't want to get my informant and friend sacked. I did keep it though, as evidence should I ever need it. In the end I took a handsome payout as severance a few years down the line. It paid for an entirely new rig and sails, plus a few other fancy bits on Boogie Nights.

S/he might have been safe under whistleblower legislation, but I can see why you wan't want to risk it. Congratulations on the sails.

oh, additionally, I also have in the same conversation transcript how they would use my feature series idea presented at interview. (my idea was based on the TopGear smashing up a Hilux a year or so before, to take an expendable boat and put it through various experiments, such as dismasting, running aground, knock downs, fire etc.) They poo-poo'd the idea to my face saying the readers wouldn't be interested in that sort of thing.

What a pain. Mind you, I once spent a pleasant afternoon pitching an idea to a BBC researcher which a year later turned up as a series for Richard Hammond.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Is there there not an infinitely more positive narrative emerging here?

Yes, there is, and I hope that if enough of us speak out on threads like this we can minimise the effect of the dinosaurs.

I think things are getting better, on the whole. I work (some of the time) with young people, and they are overall far more accepting of and welcoming to diverse groups than older generations. For example, they simply Do. Not. Care. whether someone has a male or female romantic partner. What music the person likes is of far more interest.

 

[jordanbasset]

It's good to see the number of sensible folks though, out-numbers the shandy drinking toss hobbits..

Really enjoyed your comments but that phrase made me laugh out loud

 

[Tomahawk]

The original question was where have all the good women gone? (inferring the bad ones have stayed fnar, or that there were indeed good ones to start with, double fnar)

I suggested yesterday on this thread that a lot of women are now using a facebook group instead that is locked to only women.

Is that not playing into gender stereotypes of the very sort that we are supposed to be working against?
How are we ever going to develop as a society if people hide themselves in artificial ghettoes of our own making?

 

[Tomahawk]

second example: I also have the copies of email transcripts (don't ask me how I got them) written by an ex-ex editor of yachting monthly to the then publisher in 2007, dismissing me as a female applicant for deputy editor, because readers wouldn't trust a woman. (despite owning my own boat, and having all but 4 years of my life on and around boats and having worked professionally as a journalist and photographer since the mid 90's) They were also worried I was the wrong age... (this is double speak for likely to pop babies out) (They employed a man instead, who was roughly the same age but with less experience as a journalist and less experience with boats.)

YW is different but not so much. There's a female editor and dep ed. But I'm not sure they have a huge amount of freedom to publish what they would like. YW was traditionally the shiny-golden-trophy-cabinet-baby, a loss making magazine, propped up by the sales of other yachting titles in the portfolio.

And they wonder why sales drop and no one wants to buy their mags.

 

[shan]

Is that not playing into gender stereotypes of the very sort that we are supposed to be working against?
How are we ever going to develop as a society if people hide themselves in artificial ghettoes of our own making?

Imperfect solutions in an imperfect world.

 

[Kukri]

I would most certainly trust the present Editor of YW. I have corresponded with her for twenty years and she has always come across as experienced, thoughtful and prudent. In fact I have liked her more than any of the male editors.

A woman popped up in the racing section a day or two back, but I didn’t blow her cover.

 

[Daydream believer]

Your unprovoked attack on me was really uncalled for in # 47 I wasn't surprise as this is what you do , going from thread to thread finding posting you don't agree with ,
Then attack the poster , here once again doing just that .
I decided it's time to let you get on with it , and leave it to the rest of the members here work out for them self the type of person you are .
You seen to made a good job without anyone help to do just that .
Time you actually contribute to these forum and not just wined people up to get your thrills.
You can go down to the pub and do that but I guess you feel safer behind a PC .

Now i have got to reply
several posters have knocked my comments. Fair enough they are entitled to
but what have i said that is wrong ?
i said that editors adjust their content to their buying audience-- are you knockers of my comment saying they do not. - get real
Sugar Kane made the point quite fairly that women did not buy the mags because they were excluded in the first place- well come on S K be realistic, they publish these to make money and it is a chicken and egg situation. If they start doing stuff with women content . Sorry but not being one i do not actually know what you would want to see any way other than a woman helming a boat or some woman stuck up a stern tube just to prove some wild point. Will they actually sell more mags. Not reallyunless some kinky bloke got a thrill from it.
then i made the comment about bad language. Well in fairness i should have read SK's warning first. But in any event it is not the sort of thing one wants to read in prose. Do you really think those responsible for changing things will take your report seriously, perhaps they have due to your previous experience . I do not know. But i would not have.
One further note about bad language from ladies. I worked for a while where there were a fair number of women at the same level ( work wise) as me. Stress among the staff was high and some resorted to extreme levels of bad language. Management frowned on it but understood. It was interesting to note that the women who swore the most tended to get sidelined by those women that did not.
it was also interesting to note that the "stronger willed" ( such as SK obviouly is) were sidelined by the other women. They did not stop so long and did not fit into the team so well. Perhaps that was male domination coming to the fore, i do not know. Other women got on well and seemed happy enough.

Perhaps SK your presence in some areas may have the reverse effect- have you thought about that?

so my point about this is that before screaming foul just consider what has been said first please.
i could have put them differently-- but it is a forum and someone is bound to bite:encouragement:

 

[Fox Morgan]

A woman popped up in the racing section a day or two back, but I didn’t blow her cover.

this comment ^ is also a hint at where women have gone. Incognito. it's a sad fact that (as I already gave an example to) we need to hide our true identity in order to get on with things.
true story: A British orchestra management team were discussing the lack of ethnic diversity in the orchestra. Between them they all agreed that they didn't think they were biased and it must be a lack of talent in that area. So to be sure to rule out a bias, they only auditioned for positions, behind a screen and nameless.
Suddenly there's a lot more black and ethnic minorities popping up in the orchestra. Funny that.

We can think we don't have bias, but it lurks within our subconscious (for others here it doesn't so much lurk as march about with a banner) we have to find ways around these. Sometimes by pretending to be something or someone else. (George Eliot anyone?)

When I adopt a male persona in a professional setting electronically/in publishing, I get straightforward answers and everything feels that bit more efficient.
As myself, I find a range of responses, sometimes I have to explain myself several times, be more persuasive, I'm more conscious about coming across as "bossy" or rude or overly self confident.
I find shopping particularly frustrating. Recently, I was in a shop wanting to discuss and buy a specific computer. I wandered backwards and forwards trying to get attention. I tried another shop, same response. I can do the same in a good number of motorbike shops and cycle shops. It's like putting on the cloak of invisibility.
At the last Southampton boat show, the cloak only worked when I was alone. When I was walking with a male friend, plenty of attention from the various stall holders. I went on several days, one day with a male friend, another day alone, another day with a male friend. the difference was marked. I should try again with a female friend, but I don't have any, they're all smooth faced chaps with suspiciously perfect moustaches.

 

[Fox Morgan]

Now i have got to reply
several posters have knocked my comments. Fair enough they are entitled to
but what have i said that is wrong ?
i said that editors adjust their content to their buying audience-- are you knockers of my comment saying they do not. - get real
Sugar Kane made the point quite fairly that women did not buy the mags because they were excluded in the first place- well come on S K be realistic, they publish these to make money and it is a chicken and egg situation. If they start doing stuff with women content . Sorry but not being one i do not actually know what you would want to see any way other than a woman helming a boat or some woman stuck up a stern tube just to prove some wild point. Will they actually sell more mags. Not reallyunless some kinky bloke got a thrill from it.
then i made the comment about bad language. Well in fairness i should have read SK's warning first. But in any event it is not the sort of thing one wants to read in prose. Do you really think those responsible for changing things will take your report seriously, perhaps they have due to your previous experience . I do not know. But i would not have.
One further note about bad language from ladies. I worked for a while where there were a fair number of women at the same level ( work wise) as me. Stress among the staff was high and some resorted to extreme levels of bad language. Management frowned on it but understood. It was interesting to note that the women who swore the most tended to get sidelined by those women that did not.
it was also interesting to note that the "stronger willed" ( such as SK obviouly is) were sidelined by the other women. They did not stop so long and did not fit into the team so well. Perhaps that was male domination coming to the fore, i do not know. Other women got on well and seemed happy enough.

Perhaps SK your presence in some areas may have the reverse effect- have you thought about that?

so my point about this is that before screaming foul just consider what has been said first please.
i could have put them differently-- but it is a forum and someone is bound to bite:encouragement:

OK, come on then...

Editors have little influence over certain elements of a magazine. The advertising is mostly beyond their control. Ensuring appropriate ads are used can go a long way to making sure a magazine is appealing to a broader audience. The magazines held under the banner of a large publisher don't have freedoms that smaller independent magazines have. It's such a large topic area I can't cover it in one forum response. But, large publishers have lost a grip on their readership. It's being snatched away by smaller, newer more dynamic publications. YW readership somewhere around 11k. It's falling into the closure zone for a large publisher. The fat controllers are not creative people, they are money people. They often don't fully understand the subject matter either. My old magazine SuperBike had a centrefold. The editor hated it. The readers didn't care either way. The editor tried repeatedly to get rid of it. But the fat controller, a rotund Carp fisherman, insisted that "tits sell" and we had to keep the mammaries. The editor said it was putting women off the mag. The fat controller didn't believe women were interested in motorbikes...

Anyway I'll move on.

"some woman stuck up a stern tube" and you wonder what you said is wrong... someone give that man a sticker.
right, this is how it works, if we show the reality, the real world of how many women genuinely are actually sailing and competing and the very many others who aspire to, it doesn't look anything like what is represented in the magazine. It's more. Much, much more. Now if the magazine casually upped the images of women winching, helming (without a man touching her shoulder for moral support) and so on, like we actually do get in the real world, mad old bats like you would finally realise that you've been sold a skewed world view. There's nothing kinky at all about fair representation. Not all superheroes are blokes it turns out.
Just up the representation of women in the sport and the women, might, just might start to pick up the mag. Or let it die and be closed. I really don't care all that much. There's emerging publications that do speak to a broader audience who all have a keen interest in a particular area. Such as surfing, or paddleboard, or other adventure sports or indeed a different breed of sailing and boating mag aimed at more egalitarian audience.

And finally, let's talk about language shall we?

I will not modify my behaviour in my own personal blog to appease delicate ideals of what a "lady" should or shouldn't do to conduct herself. Women are far too compliant at the best of times, but, your inference that I wouldn't find a good man talking that way, what an utter, utter, utter fool you are. I have never been sidelined because of my creative use of English or French language. I've been sidelined because I am non compliant. I have been sidelined because I am potentially capable of thrusting a new human from my nether region. I've been sidelined because I was too young, too old, too fat, too pale, too loud, too quiet, too bossy, too skilled, too ugly, too socialist, too common, too whiney, just too... sometimes. That's OK. That's life. Some we win, some we lose.
Maybe, you could consider that I wrote what I wrote, the way I wrote it, because it's stronger than being all nice and sugar coated. If any of the fat controllers read it, they would feel like I'm in the room. They know who I am and they know where to find me when they need new ideas for their magazines.

I am between universities right now, I have a very good book that's worth a read. I normally lend it to students, but maybe you could do with it too. Language really does matter. It's all about time and place. Time and place Daydream believer,

 

[Tam Lin]

Anyway, what’s wrong with shandy?

 

[Kukri]

Long, long ago, my sister became, briefly, the youngest holder of an RYA Offshore certificate. She took her practical in particularly vile weather, so of course she was encased in 1970s foul weather rig, towel round neck, hood done up, etc. She was told she had passed, and went to the marina shower block to get out of her soaking clothes and have a hot shower. As did the examiner. When they met to sign the paperwork, he said “If I had known how young you are, I would never have passed you!”

I doubt if he would have said that to a male teenager.

There are rather few women in command of British merchant ships. I worked for a company that employed one of them. When I first met her she was still a Chief Officer, and had just emerged from a cargo hold in Hong Kong harbour wearing a filthy boiler suit, a hard hat and safety boots, and we discussed the problem for ten minutes. Only over lunch did I notice that the Mate was female. And she is still at sea and has had an exemplary career.

It was that purported “dinosaur”, Prince Philip, who insisted that Trinity House appoint a female Elder Brother. I suggested Margaret but I had forgotten that she’s a Kiwi.

I have two friends who are or were professional Mates on very big yachts. One is in her seventies and used to post here a lot, and the other is in her thirties. The latter was taking her Commercial Endorsement a few years ago and was the only girl on her EDH course, the only Asian, and the only one who could splice wire.

Just how much more do women have to do?

 

[Biggles Wader]

Long, long ago, my sister became, briefly, the youngest holder of an RYA Offshore certificate. She took her practical in particularly vile weather, so of course she was encased in 1970s foul weather rig, towel round neck, hood done up, etc. She was told she had passed, and went to the marina shower block to get out of her soaking clothes and have a hot shower. As did the examiner. When they met to sign the paperwork, he said “If I had known how young you are, I would never have passed you!”

I doubt if he would have said that to a male teenager.

There are rather few women in command of British merchant ships.

There are not that many British merchant ships left for them to command
However, I know of one or two female "masters" on cross channel ferries including one on the biggest ferry.

 

[dom]

There are not that many British merchant ships left for them to command
However, I know of one or two female "masters" on cross channel ferries including one on the biggest ferry.

Not to forget a fairly well known UK shipping co. (In US ownership since 1998 but still UK based):

She might even be in the Solent this Friday!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/cruises/articles/Meet-Cunards-first-and-only-female-captain/