Where and when does our islands Coast begin and end ? a thought on the matter

[Capt Popeye]

Of course I am aware of the conventional use of the terms, regularly use them myself, and don't have a problem with them. I am not arguing against them!

I am, however, arguing against your suggestion that we have different words for them because they are different things. It is the other way around. We find it useful (or pleasing) to distinguish between them, so we give them different names, so we consider them different things.

I am merely highlighting the nature of the difference between these 'things': that the distinctions between them are matters of language and social convention, not anything inherent in the things themselves. There are plenty of variations between languages in their divisions of 'things' to demonstrate this. In some languages what we in English call a river that drains into the sea has a different name (i.e. is considered something different) to a 'river' that flows into another river. Again, some languages, such as English, consider sheep and goats to be different things, in others they are the same thing.

You say a river runs towards the sea, but about half the time a tidal river is running away from the sea. As you note, it is sometimes difficult to tell where a river ends and a sea begins. In English we tend to use the words estuary and delta, but these things don't label or distinguish themselves. Is the Baltic a sea or a river estuary? What about the Med? What about 'rivers' that only run seasonally or even more sporadically, and are dry most of the time? Is the 'North Sea' the North Sea, or the 'German Sea' as it used to be called in English (I have a vague recollection was also at one time called the West Sea in Dutch), or is it not a sea but an ocean, as it used to also be labelled the 'German Ocean' on English maps. (For heavens sake don't get me started on maps vs. charts! )

So when Captain Popeye rails against the Ordnance Survey's definition of coast (which may well have been garbled by the article he refers to, just to complicate matters!), he won't ever be able to resolve the matter by studying ever more closely the water itself, the land itself, or their intersection itself. He will only be able to do so by recognising that what is and what is not coast is a matter of language and convention, and either using a definition that someone else gives, or using his own.

Well just to clarify my understanding, that is 'we are talking' English and British ere not Forun countries where their understanding maybe different to ours.

Can I ask you to explain your statement above ..... about half the time a river is running away from the Sea ........ surely the River always supports the sea, plus Vicky Verky, its its birth mother after all, no Sea not much River, so a River is being supported by its Sea 6hrs expanded + 6 hrs retreating back and so it goes on everlastingly, neither getting away from each other at any time, bonded for eternity, surely ?

 

[johnalison]

Might refer you to the fact that the Coast series had The Open University involved and the Presenters were Scientists, Geologists etc etc not Newspaper Hacks or BBC Reporters and ilk

The piece was based upon a stated Ordanance Survey report which one might hope was based on some facts or regognition of factual evidence; guess they were just trying to turn our World upside down again ? = tossers

I’m assuming that decisions about the programmes’ contents were the responsibility of TV staff rather than the presenters. As far as I know, education is not a requirement for working in the media.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Down west we have the same division between River Severn, Severn Estuary, Bristol Channel, and then the Severn Sea/Celtic Sea.

Convention is that estuary starts where tide stops so "Tidenham", but where is Estuary ending? The Shoots??. Before they build the 1st Suspension bridge there was little to mark the spot. So why not a line between Avonmouth and Newport river Usk?

Cruising wise Milford Haven is regarded as BC, but its on the edge of the Irish sea so a line from Lands End to Govans Head is not quite right

 

[Capt Popeye]

Maybe you do assume incorrectly kind Sir, its an Open University programme, which meands lotsa contributers producers, researchers, proffesors, etc etc its not made by the likes of ordinary TV Production persons at all, with the exeption of Crew to produce technically, which i think they do very well indeed

 

[johnalison]

Maybe you do assume incorrectly kind Sir, its an Open University programme, which meands lotsa contributers producers, researchers, proffesors, etc etc its not made by the likes of ordinary TV Production persons at all, with the exeption of Crew to produce technically, which i think they do very well indeed

Maybe, but which is the more likely:
”Where would you like to go this month?”
or: “We’d like to do a programme about Grimsby. Pack your bags”.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Maybe you do assume incorrectly kind Sir, its an Open University programme, which meands lotsa contributers producers, researchers, proffesors, etc etc its not made by the likes of ordinary TV Production persons at all, with the exeption of Crew to produce technically, which i think they do very well indeed

Open University TV programmes are made by normal BBC or independent production company staff (directors, producers, researchers) with advice from OU academics.

 

[Capt Popeye]

I’m assuming that decisions about the programmes’ contents were the responsibility of TV staff rather than the presenters. As far as I know, education is not a requirement for working in the media.

Maybe, but which is the more likely:
”Where would you like to go this month?”
or: “We’d like to do a programme about Grimsby. Pack your bags”.

Yes well, most probably then using your hypothis is when ask where to go next, they said, the Coast, thats easy the Producer said, we can catch the Tube there, so thats easily settled., eh ?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Open University TV programmes are made by normal BBC or independent production company staff (directors, producers, researchers) with advice from OU academics.

Who writes the Script then; is it knowedgable peoples like the EU lecturers or the Production Company Staff ?

 

[steve yates]

Words are not set in stone, but defined by usage. Fanny is a good example

 

[JumbleDuck]

Who writes the Script then; is it knowedgable peoples like the EU lecturers or the Production Company Staff ?

Production company staff.

 

[Stemar]

Yea and Rivers that do not have Bridges across their tidal reaches ?

Or rivers who have bridges in the Estuaries so the tidal reaches are far inland ?

Edge cases again, both in fairly small numbers.

In the first case, the sea goes a good way inland, in the second, it stops shorter than you might think. In neither case does it matter; the fish don't care about an arbitrary distinction

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Edge cases again, both in fairly small numbers.

In the first case, the sea goes a good way inland, in the second, it stops shorter than you might think. In neither case does it matter; the fish don't care about an arbitrary distinction

Small numbers like the principle rivers of the UK such as Thames, Humber, Forth, Tamar Cleddau, Bristol Avon etc. The distinction is not only in human language as the fish range depends on salt, brackish or fresh. The estuary is brackish so the widening of the Severn at the M4 bridges means that river flow dilution of the sal changes. Indeed as we try and build or bridges at a narrows, this may often mark the transition from estuary to sea.

 

[johnalison]

Small numbers like the principle rivers of the UK such as Thames, Humber, Forth, Tamar Cleddau, Bristol Avon etc. The distinction is not only in human language as the fish range depends on salt, brackish or fresh. The estuary is brackish so the widening of the Severn at the M4 bridges means that river flow dilution of the sal changes. Indeed as we try and build or bridges at a narrows, this may often mark the transition from estuary to sea.

It always used to be obvious to me when one was at sea, my experience being limited to Cornwall. As soon as you left the harbour, you were at sea. In the Thames Estuary it is far from clear. In the Blackwater, for example, you are in tidal salt water, but in a geographical river. Further out, perhaps in the Swin, you may be in a few metres of water and surrounded by banks. If the weather is kind, you are almost home, if not, you may as well be in the Atlantic, and definitely at sea, but there is no clear distinction.