When your sunny Greek charter goes wrong...

[JumbleDuck]

It's one of our great challenges as skippers - to set the tone appropriate for the crew and the conditions.

Which is fine, but it assumes that there is a "skipper" and I suspect that its a pretty alien concept to many groups of friends chartering,

Personally, I won't go on a boat unless I'm absolutely clear who's in charge - whether me or someone else. If I'm more experienced than the skipper I'm blissfully happy to be a helpful grunt unless asked otherwise. Most often I learn a thing or two from the process.

Wouldn't usually work for me, but that's definitely not to say that you shouldn't do it that way, if it works for you. I have a very experienced sailing friend I go sailing with from time to time and she is always emphatic that I take the decisions. Which I am happy to do, even though my instincts are more consultative. Even in that case, though, we always make passage plans jointly. It's only in the boat handling that she wants me to lead.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Fair enough, and maybe command/leadership was a bit strong but there were evidently people who had a bit of a clue and some that certainly didn't. I'd have expected those with clues to take care of the others and it wasn't apparent that they did.

Good point. Moving from "We're all mates having a good time together" to "We two know more about this than your four, so it would be a good idea for you to do what we say" must be quite a tricky move.

 

[Adios]

Personally, I won't go on a boat unless I'm absolutely clear who's in charge - whether me or someone else. If I'm more experienced than the skipper I'm blissfully happy to be a helpful grunt unless asked otherwise. Most often I learn a thing or two from the process.

I helped someone take their new to them first yacht from London to Gosport. He specifically asked me along for my experience relative to his couple of times crewing on someone else's boat. I probably should have said "So do you want me to be the skipper? or just on standby telling you when you're about to do something silly? Or should I bite my tongue and wait to be asked like a break in case of emergency aid?". It was the latter he wanted, as he was determined to pose as knowledgeable skipper for the non-sailing friend he brought along. If I suggested anything he made a show of contemplating its wisdom as though he had a clue. Best bit was when he'd been asleep and was still off watch he jumped out of the companionway when he heard me telling his mate we were going to tack. Said we had to wait until he'd checked the chart and confirmed it was needed. We were straying into shipping areas but no imminent danger so I let him play his game. I had a word with him about it after but as nothing much went wrong it wasn't a big issue, mostly amusing, but it was a lesson learnt.

 

[Stemar]

If I'm sailing, there has to be a skipper. I don't care who it is, but there are so many situations where there are several ways to do things, any of which will work fine, but mixing them up will lead to entertainment for onlookers or worse, that one person has to lead and decide we're doing it his way. I'm entirely happy to let that happen, even if I am thinking about my personal plan B in case their plan doesn't work and they don't have their own plan B.

 

[38mess]

You can't sail a boat by committee.
Crew can have input but ultimately someone needs to make a decision

 

[JumbleDuck]

You can't sail a boat by committee.
Crew can have input but ultimately someone needs to make a decision

That's not a given. I grant you that deciding every movement or tiller/wheel or adjustment of sheets by consensus would be a little impractical, but given that these things can be decided by whoever is helming at the time, there really is no reason why the big decisions can't be made mutually. I reckon that claims to the contrary rarely come from people who see themselves taking orders ...

It's much like driving. The driver gets to decide lane, gear and speed but everyone can have a say in route, destination, stopping points and so on.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I helped someone take their new to them first yacht from London to Gosport. He specifically asked me along for my experience relative to his couple of times crewing on someone else's boat.

I once offered to help someone deliver their new boat a few hundred miles. Did I want to be skipper? Well, sure, yes, if you want me to. At which point I got demands for my qualifications[1], experience[2] and (I kid you not) a written reference from my yacht club (sic). Bugger that for a game of soldiers. I'm offering to help out, not applying for a job. Offer withdrawn.

[1] RYA Elementary Dayboat with tidal endorsement

[2] Almost wholly in my own boats. I suppose I could write myself a reference; "Bad tempered, mercurial, opinionated but generally a sound man with the makings of a bacon buttie."

 

[laika]

I reckon that claims to the contrary rarely come from people who see themselves taking orders ...

I offer myself as a counter example. I'm not big on obedience to authority. Dump me on an island with a bunch of plane crash survivors and I would vehemently resist choosing a "leader". But on a boat you sometimes don't have time for lengthy discussions and frequently a half decent decision is better than no decision. Moreover there can't be any "but I thought you were dealing with that". If one person is responsible for everything not delegated, nothing falls through the cracks. The anarchists in the Spanish revolution had military commanders, albeit ones decided by the troops beforehand.

I frequently crew for people who crew for me. I have no problem taking orders or taking charge. We seek each others' opinions but one person ultimately decides. If I sailed with someone I thought made bad decisions I'd do as they said and then never sail with them again. I've been on charters with other couples with less sailing experience. We decided to be skipper on alternate days. I *like* not having the stress of being skipper. But if that task falls to so be it. Maybe this works so easily for me because I'm not in that macho alpha male culture so many sailors seem to belong to. "Designated co-ordinator" (aka skipper) is something I just see as a necessary role in sailing, not a statement of personal worth.

EDIT: iirc JumbleDuck normally sails a small boat which is easily single-handed. If you don't need to co-ordinate people to sail, you don't need a designated coordinator

 

[Adios]

I once offered to help someone deliver their new boat a few hundred miles. Did I want to be skipper? Well, sure, yes, if you want me to. At which point I got demands for my qualifications[1], experience[2] and (I kid you not) a written reference from my yacht club (sic). Bugger that for a game of soldiers. I'm offering to help out, not applying for a job. Offer withdrawn.

[1] RYA Elementary Dayboat with tidal endorsement

[2] Almost wholly in my own boats. I suppose I could write myself a reference; "Bad tempered, mercurial, opinionated but generally a sound man with the makings of a bacon buttie."

The best offer i had was to skipper a lovely classic lined yawl (can't remember the model) from London to Southwold. Catch was we'd be setting off with a non-working engine. Would be towed through the Woolwich barrier then on our own. I was sort of interviewed for it by a friend of the owner who knew more about boats than him. I was totally up for it but for reasons I can't remember it never happened. Would have enjoyed that challenge for sure.

I was living aboard in london at the time and did no end of helping out trips as I was one of only a few there who knew how to use a boat. Most had just bought one to live on or at most only knew about non-tidal waters. Took a few narrow boats up from docklands through london, they are surprisingly stable in the wash from the sightseeing boats due to their length but need to be thoughtfully lined up in advance for the bridges on the bends. Happy days.

 

[RJJ]

That's not a given. I grant you that deciding every movement or tiller/wheel or adjustment of sheets by consensus would be a little impractical, but given that these things can be decided by whoever is helming at the time, there really is no reason why the big decisions can't be made mutually. I reckon that claims to the contrary rarely come from people who see themselves taking orders ...

It's much like driving. The driver gets to decide lane, gear and speed but everyone can have a say in route, destination, stopping points and so on.

But in your description above of you sailing with plus 1...you've demonstrated leadership in the broader sense - you've broken down the task, you've agreed a way of working that you consider satisfactory and that meets your respective wants and abilities, and perhaps most importantly personalities. That's fine. There are plenty of ways to set it up.

The critique about the original crew was there wasn't much leadership evident. I think that was a bit harsh - it was only fragments of, I imagine, a 45-90 minute situation.

 

[Adios]

We decided to be skipper on alternate days. I *like* not having the stress of being skipper. But if that task falls to so be it. Maybe this works so easily for me because I'm not in that macho alpha male culture so many sailors seem to belong to.

I don't think its a given that someone who struggles to sit back and be crew is due to macho posturing. The thing about going to sea in a small boat is you are essentially putting yourself in a survival situation every time. Anyone who does that regularly with due diligence will have trained themselves to be alert to the situation and constantly considering what needs to be done next. Very hard to switch that off. Is it even really sensible to try to switch it off? You are after all still in the same survival situation regardless of who else is on board. If things got to a life or death situation which in that video it pretty much was in some ways and my skipper senses were screaming this and that needs to be done now, its not just macho bullshit creating a situation

 

[JumbleDuck]

But on a boat you sometimes don't have time for lengthy discussions and frequently a half decent decision is better than no decision.

Could you give me an example or two which aren't just the helm's role? Genuinely interested. I can't think of any quick decision we have ever needed which couldn't be made by the person at the helm. Mind you, I usually sail with people I know I can relay on to make sensible decisions.

EDIT: iirc JumbleDuck normally sails a small boat which is easily single-handed. If you don't need to co-ordinate people to sail, you don't need a designated coordinator

Good point. But then, we're often told - and I believe it - that modern boats of 40+ feet can be a doddle to sail single handed too. And - see above - how often are these big decisions about sailing (ie short-term) and how long are they about planning and other long term matters.

However, to reiterate, if it works for you, that's fine by me.

 

[38mess]

That's not a given. I grant you that deciding every movement or tiller/wheel or adjustment of sheets by consensus would be a little impractical, but given that these things can be decided by whoever is helming at the time, there really is no reason why the big decisions can't be made mutually. I reckon that claims to the contrary rarely come from people who see themselves taking orders ...

It's much like driving. The driver gets to decide lane, gear and speed but everyone can have a say in route, destination, stopping points and so on.

I have to disagree.
the guy on the tiller steers the course given by the skipper, crew can tweak sheets to suit wind shifts, but a designated skipper must have the last say, unless he wants to lose his house if things go wrong and he gets sued.
I don't think driving a car can be compared to skippering a boat

 

[RJJ]

I helped someone take their new to them first yacht from London to Gosport. He specifically asked me along for my experience relative to his couple of times crewing on someone else's boat. I probably should have said "So do you want me to be the skipper? or just on standby telling you when you're about to do something silly? Or should I bite my tongue and wait to be asked like a break in case of emergency aid?". It was the latter he wanted, as he was determined to pose as knowledgeable skipper for the non-sailing friend he brought along. If I suggested anything he made a show of contemplating its wisdom as though he had a clue. Best bit was when he'd been asleep and was still off watch he jumped out of the companionway when he heard me telling his mate we were going to tack. Said we had to wait until he'd checked the chart and confirmed it was needed. We were straying into shipping areas but no imminent danger so I let him play his game. I had a word with him about it after but as nothing much went wrong it wasn't a big issue, mostly amusing, but it was a lesson learnt.

the point about somebody being in charge doesn't mean that somebody makes every single decision. The point is that somebody has overall responsibility and delegates to experienced crew and watch leaders. He could have delegated to you to navigate freely while on watch. He could have said "wake me before you want to tack" - for his own benefit and practice as that's what he'd have asked a less-experienced watch-leader to do. Or he could have said "tack before the shipping lane". But the important thing is to have communicated his wishes in advance, which by the sounds of things he hadn't yet learned to do.

 

[Adios]

the point about somebody being in charge doesn't mean that somebody makes every single decision. The point is that somebody has overall responsibility and delegates to experienced crew and watch leaders. He could have delegated to you to navigate freely while on watch. He could have said "wake me before you want to tack" - for his own benefit and practice as that's what he'd have asked a less-experienced watch-leader to do. Or he could have said "tack before the shipping lane". But the important thing is to have communicated his wishes in advance, which by the sounds of things he hadn't yet learned to do.

That all sounds like a proper way to do it. I wasn't so experienced that I knew the right way to work it but it was clear someone with bleary eyes who'd been asleep and had no idea where we were at 3am wasn't in a position to be second guessing the more experienced person who has been on watch. And like a tack was a big deal that needed great consideration. It just seemed stupid which wasn't lost on his mate who knew he's a poser anyway. Lots of eye rolling on that trip.

 

[RJJ]

That all sounds like a proper way to do it. I wasn't so experienced that I knew the right way to work it but it was clear someone with bleary eyes who'd been asleep and had no idea where we were at 3am wasn't in a position to be second guessing the more experienced person who has been on watch. And like a tack was a big deal that needed great consideration. It just seemed stupid which wasn't lost on his mate who knew he's a poser anyway. Lots of eye rolling on that trip.

Yep...done plenty of eye-rolling ;-)

but people gotta learn somehow. Now real skippering is to ask your crew for feedback. How did I do? What would have made it work better for you? Did you have any concerns? It's a sign of strength, not weakness.

All part of leadership, considered in the broader "transformational" sense. Leadership isn't bossing people around, it's setting and achieving goals as a group, and using the process to develop collective and individual skills "in the bank" to take on future goals.

 

[davidlhill]

Which ones, specifically?
None of the airlines you'd normally use for ex UK holiday flights make the least difficulty over these, it is a complete myth. It's a standard ICAO/IATA exemption. Why would they ban them? What harm can they possibly do? After all, every single airline seat has one stowed underneath it!

Below is an excerpt from the ICAO/IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations which applies to all afiliated airlines (ie any you are likely to travel on).
Airlines can, in theorey, make exemptions from this but in practice I doubt any do. It is perfectly specific and crystal clear.

Self-inflating life jackets are permitted if they contain not more than two small cylinders with a non-flammable gas in Division 2.2 plus not more than two spare cartridges per person.

They may have to be carried in the hold though, if in doubt, check. This info should be readily found on every airlines' Ts and Cs of carriage.

There is only an issue if you try to put the cartridges in hold baggage (in my experience). I assume because the hold isn't pressurised?

 

[laika]

Could you give me an example or two which aren't just the helm's role? Genuinely interested. I can't think of any quick decision we have ever needed which couldn't be made by the person at the helm.

Not quite sure what you man here: do you have an "whoever is on the helm is in charge" rule? In which case you *do* have a rule for assignment of skipper, though some of us might argue that's not always the optimal rule. As skipper you're responsible for everyone's safety which means watching when people are putting their thumbs between the line and the winch, putting their hands on the traveller, not holding on, not clipped on, not keeping their head down. The more crew you're taking care of the less sense it makes to steer. Moreover if the person on the helm is the overall decision maker, how do you give the less experienced the opportunity to steer? You get a jammed furler: What would happen? Does the helm decide whether it's safe to go to the bow, and ask someone to go, come back, describe the situation and then the helm makes the decision how they should steer and how the other crew should fix the furler regardless of how experienced they are? Do they assign roles and responsibilities if you have a MOB regardless of how experienced they are relative to the others?

Concrete example of when someone has to make a snap decision rather than discuss it so you need to know who that person will be? You're on a boat with high freeboard, berthing in a tricky crosswind. 3 people jump ashore and there's a couple of others and the helm on board. One of the jumpers falls between the boat and the dock. You have at least 3 people with things which control the boat's position and all have different views (literal and potentially metaphorical). Does everyone always defer to the helm who may not have the best view of what is happening?

I'll re-state this: A good skipper will always solicit input where there's time to discuss options. The best way for someone to feel happy with a plan is to include them in the making of it. Sometimes though you need a snap decision. Only one person can make that (or you need to discuss whose snap decision to go with) so you need to agree in advance who that will be. If on your boat it's always "the helm" then you *do* have a designated decision maker, although I'll argue, not necessarily the optimal one.

If things got to a life or death situation which in that video it pretty much was in some ways and my skipper senses were screaming this and that needs to be done now, its not just macho bullshit creating a situation

Often people's perception of risk on boats is quite a long way removed from actual risk. Very few people die in yachting compared to the numbers who get terrified that they're going to die. Looking at any situation from an objective point of view you're very rarely going to be in a true life or death situation. The folks in the video just ended up with a shredded foresail. Sometimes someone who's out of the depth will be grateful to have someone with more experience step in to help but there are ways to offer advice without making it sound like you are questioning the skipper's decision making ability and the alpha-dog-in-a-subservient-role often lacks that subtlety. If the skipper is another alpha dog, trying to challenge them may just make them more reckless and bring conflict into an already fraught situation. If safety culture is not being promoted, private crew-to-crew chats about clipping on and holding on which don't include an angry "I don't know why that idiot hasn't told you this already" be more effective. Obviously a healthy dose of fatalism helps...

 

[laika]

Which ones, specifically?
None of the airlines you'd normally use for ex UK holiday flights make the least difficulty over these, it is a complete myth. It's a standard ICAO/IATA exemption. Why would they ban them? What harm can they possibly do? After all, every single airline seat has one stowed underneath it!

You may have missed the many, many threads we've had on this over the years. Those IATA guidelines say the approval of the operator is required. Some airlines (e.g. easyjet) now have a web page stating lifejackets are ok. Last time I flew BA with a lifejacket I called them in advance and after *much* discussion they said "fine, but just mention it at checkin". And at checkin all the fun begins again because the checkin operators for whatever airline don't necessarily understand, invariably have to call supervisors etc. My most entertaining experience was with turkish. I'd downloaded and printed the IATA guidelines from spinlock's website. Had a farcical email exchange with customer services beforehand who didn't really understand my question ("No need to bring lifejacket mr. laika! All our planes have one under seat!") but eventually said "ask at checkin". Checkin they had no clue but said to take it in hand baggage. Then at stanstead security I got held like a terrorist. It wasn't so much the lifejacket and spare cartridge as when I whipped out the IATA dangerous goods guidelines I'd printed out that the security guy started getting very aggressive about why I had "restricted information". I nearly missed that flight.

So no. not a myth.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have to disagree.
the guy on the tiller steers the course given by the skipper, crew can tweak sheets to suit wind shifts, but a designated skipper must have the last say, unless he wants to lose his house if things go wrong and he gets sued.

If you don't have a designated skipper, who gets sued? As I keep saying, though, if it works for you, go for it.

I don't think driving a car can be compared to skippering a boat

Indeed not. The possibilities for doing damage or killing people are far less with a boat and problematic situations arise far more slowly.