When your sunny Greek charter goes wrong...

[Adios]

In that case, I'll let the charter co off.

I'm not so forgiving. They must know that no one wears them outside of a seen in advance dodgy situation unfolding like in that video, in other words when its too late for someone having an accident, and even then they are so cumbersome people with work to do still chose not to wear them. The hire company is offering a level of service not just the bare minimum so I don't think its unreasonable to expect decent life jackets the same as they provide a decent functional toilet not just a bucket.

 

[Sailfree]

I can imagine, plus the weight in the luggage. Seems very cheap of them to skimp on that when its hardly a cheap thing to hire a boat

Having owned 3 charter boats in UK going out with one of the premier charter companies in the Solent I agree its not cheap - and more to the point the charter company does not make much money with costs of maintaining an office, advertising, hand over and hand back of boats and cleaning and as a boat owner you dont make much money it just offsets your costs a bit.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Just looking at some comments under the video "Sorry but I don't agree with "get the bow into the wind before attempting to furl"... by strong winds, it's always easier to furl downwind..." Am I missing something because I'm thinking having a sail filled with 60 knots of wind pulling 10 tons of boat will give a lot more resistance to furling than an empty sail even if its flogging around a lot.

Releasing the sheets and letting the sail fly forwards is something i've never had to try but that would have probably been better than leaving it as it was wouldn't it?

Obviously it makes less and less difference as the windspeed increases, but taking advantage of the drop in apparent wind is one benefit. The others are that there's far less pitching - nice if a foredeck trip is on the cards. Lastly -as someone already mentioned - tin this case the flogging sail and sheets are now out over the bow and you can get a look at the furler.

 

[Adios]

Obviously it makes less and less difference as the windspeed increases, but taking advantage of the drop in apparent wind is one benefit. The others are that there's far less pitching - nice if a foredeck trip is on the cards. Lastly -as someone already mentioned - tin this case the flogging sail and sheets are now out over the bow and you can get a look at the furler.

In moderate winds maybe the apparent wind drop is enough of a benefit but as you say obviously much less of a deal maker when 60/70 knots of wind is pulling the sail out and dragging the boat behind it. Maybe they have only used boats that are fairly big and always winch in the furling line, so lack the mechanical sympathy that comes from smaller boats where the difference in effort is noticeable doing it by hand. In which case might not know taking the wind out of the sail will reduce the effort needed so doesn't try heading into the wind to at least try that.

Pitching and flogging only an issue if going forward but I was thinking at least try unfurling and re-furling it from the cockpit. I think the skipper had the island in sight and was single mindedly running for shelter rather than trying to sort the boat out there first. They all have gloves on for rope handling, a couple of people helming so it seems like they weren't all total passengers and he had no options.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

I think what I found most disconcerting was the lack of command/leadership. Apart from the bits already pointed out a couple of the 'passengers' were hanging on to the guardrails or toerail and just really uncomfortable and ready to slip and hurt themselves, fall overboard or worse. Somebody needed to be told to look after them.

(I learned this when we'd left St Helier in a SW6, maybe 7, all nicely reefed and going like a train, knowing that all would be well when we turned North for home at the corner. Suddenly a 'passenger' who was sitting up on the weather sidedeck was standing up, undoing her harness and about to jump overboard. I told her boyfriend to grab her but he turned out to be incapacitated with seasickness and it all got a bit fraught until she was grabbed by someone more useful. Lesson learned. You've got to watch everyone and not just expect normal to happen when things get exciting).

 

[Adios]

I think what I found most disconcerting was the lack of command/leadership. Apart from the bits already pointed out a couple of the 'passengers' were hanging on to the guardrails or toerail and just really uncomfortable and ready to slip and hurt themselves, fall overboard or worse. Somebody needed to be told to look after them.

I've no experience managing good crews, usually i'm solo or burdened with a few inexperienced passengers including kids so like you I was thinking they didn't look well managed or secured. At one point healing about 60-70 degrees practically a constant knockdown someone shouts for them to climb on the lee rail as though that was going to make any difference

In the end the camera guy says he admires the shades guy for never showing any concern. Maybe it didn't occur to him how badly it was all going.

But I imagine there could often be tense things happening on charter boats, eg 3 couples each with sailing experience and ideas of how to do things, that's 3 men with pride and image to maintain in front of their ladies. When things are going well maybe ok but when the SHTF...

Suddenly a 'passenger' who was sitting up on the weather sidedeck was standing up, undoing her harness and about to jump overboard. I told her boyfriend to grab her but he turned out to be incapacitated with seasickness and it all got a bit fraught until she was grabbed by someone more useful. Lesson learned. You've got to watch everyone and not just expect normal to happen when things get exciting).

Jump overboard for a swim or to end it all due to seasickness?

 

[glynd]

Good point re the life jackets. If they had better / more comfortable life jackets they probably would have had them on.
.....

Were they even able to clip on? These jackets don’t look like they have a harness so we’re lifelines even provided?

The charter groups don’t supply self inflating as people will jump in with them using the re-arm kit, or they will unscrew and be useless if someone goes over. They’d spend all their time rearming jackets.

As for harnesses, last charters I’ve been on literally had webbing harnesses more suited to a tall ship or window cleaners at heights. I’d be quite concerned using one of those with a long tether.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Jump overboard for a swim or to end it all due to seasickness?

She wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, and had spent the trip out giving little screams every time the heel changed. I think so frightened that anywhere else looked safer. I could forgive her for that, but the boyfriend really disappointed me - just watched it all happening.

 

[Adios]

She wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, and had spent the trip out giving little screams every time the heel changed. I think so frightened that anywhere else looked safer. I could forgive her for that, but the boyfriend really disappointed me - just watched it all happening.

She thought she could just step off the boat and call an Uber? ? Flipping heck. Boyfriend though I can empathise if it was seasickness. Never any hint of it on my own boats but on someone elses one time, nothing much to do, diesel fumes, corkscrewing downwind motion... I truly wanted to be dead for a few hours. It actually put me off wanting to crew on anyone elses boat in case it happens again but it did give me useful empathy to change course or even destination if someone is really bad.

 

[RJJ]

Lifejackets hadn't been tried on or even glanced at. You can see one of them being unbagged.

We had similar ones on a recent Greek charter. They are totally unsatisfactory for sailing. It's not as though a decent foam 150N one is particularly expensive.

 

[bdh198]

After a similar experience of a charter companies life jackets in Antigua last year, I would always take my own. I’ve travelled on several airlines with my own LJ and gas cylinders before and never had a problem. Just need to make sure you give the airline notice and follow their procedure for stowing it.

 

[Stemar]

She thought she could just step off the boat and call an Uber? ? Flipping heck. Boyfriend though I can empathise if it was seasickness. Never any hint of it on my own boats but on someone elses one time, nothing much to do, diesel fumes, corkscrewing downwind motion... I truly wanted to be dead for a few hours. It actually put me off wanting to crew on anyone elses boat in case it happens again but it did give me useful empathy to change course or even destination if someone is really bad.

A good friend had a gift for choosing the wrong weather for a jaunt to Cherbourg. One time he had a friend and his wife on board and the predictable "unforecast" hoolie turned up. Friend was incapacitated by seasickness in anything over a 6 and wife was not a sailor. She was, however, a fairly, well, lets just say, assertive Cypriot woman. She told my friend to stop the wind immediately and, when he pointed out a lack of robes and apostles, insisted on a helicopter to take her ashore.

When they got back to their home port, she said, "I'll never set foot on your boat again - and neither will he!", indicating her husband. And, AFAIK, he never did.

 

[JumbleDuck]

When they got back to their home port, she said, "I'll never set foot on your boat again - and neither will he!", indicating her husband. And, AFAIK, he never did.

An acquaintance of mine bought himself a Cornish Crabber and based it on Ullswater. He is bright but inexperienced and took his wife out for a sail; his inexperience meaning that he was wholly unprepared for the sort of winds you get in mountainous areas. Their first trip lasted less than half an hour. His wife never set foot on the boat again and he sold it the following year.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think what I found most disconcerting was the lack of command/leadership.

The whole idea of "command" (or even "leadership") in social groupings is not one that comes easily to most people - or even to many sailors, myself included.

It's all very well to think that one person should give orders and the others obey, but it doesn't work like that for car trips, wine tasting evenings or walking trips and I suspect that a group of friends on a charter would have great difficulty about seeing one of their number as "in command" or deciding who that person should be.

That's not to say that those who get their jollies from role-playing Captains Aubrey, Bligh or Smith should not do so, if they can find subs willing to go along with it (don't forget the safe word) but it's not a reasonable way to expect normal people to behave.

 

[RupertW]

The whole idea of "command" (or even "leadership") in social groupings is not one that comes easily to most people - or even to many sailors, myself included.

It's all very well to think that one person should give orders and the others obey, but it doesn't work like that for car trips, wine tasting evenings or walking trips and I suspect that a group of friends on a charter would have great difficulty about seeing one of their number as "in command" or deciding who that person should be.

That's not to say that those who get their jollies from role-playing Captains Aubrey, Bligh or Smith should not do so, if they can find subs willing to go along with it (don't forget the safe word) but it's not a reasonable way to expect normal people to behave.

I agree - my father was somebody who thought one person was skipper and the rest crew and I grew up the same way until I tried it with a girlfriend (I think I told her to keep her head down as the boom was about to come across) and that was the last order I ever tried to give her, although she has been sailing with me for over 30 years.

We still have leadership with inexperienced friends sailing but it’s more friendly advice about actions and consequences, like, “This is the moment we all put on our harnesses and clip on”, or “The boats about to tip way over that way - best places on the boat now are that side of the cockpit, or down below in a bunk”.

 

[Adios]

The whole idea of "command" (or even "leadership") in social groupings is not one that comes easily to most people - or even to many sailors, myself included.

It's all very well to think that one person should give orders and the others obey, but it doesn't work like that for car trips, wine tasting evenings or walking trips and I suspect that a group of friends on a charter would have great difficulty about seeing one of their number as "in command" or deciding who that person should be.

That's not to say that those who get their jollies from role-playing Captains Aubrey, Bligh or Smith should not do so, if they can find subs willing to go along with it (don't forget the safe word) but it's not a reasonable way to expect normal people to behave.

All true and the more evenly distributed the experience levels the harder it will be for anyone to take orders. But if it was normal in our culture to elect a leader for any group on even a small journey then we would be trained in accepting that and we could expect people to behave like it, rather than give in to the chaos because we don't do order. One of the many interesting things I've learnt about Islam is there is a custom of choosing a leader to exactly fit this for the reasons it makes sense. Appointing an Amir

 

[RJJ]

The whole idea of "command" (or even "leadership") in social groupings is not one that comes easily to most people - or even to many sailors, myself included.

It's all very well to think that one person should give orders and the others obey, but it doesn't work like that for car trips, wine tasting evenings or walking trips and I suspect that a group of friends on a charter would have great difficulty about seeing one of their number as "in command" or deciding who that person should be.

That's not to say that those who get their jollies from role-playing Captains Aubrey, Bligh or Smith should not do so, if they can find subs willing to go along with it (don't forget the safe word) but it's not a reasonable way to expect normal people to behave.

It's one of our great challenges as skippers - to set the tone appropriate for the crew and the conditions.

Personally, I won't go on a boat unless I'm absolutely clear who's in charge - whether me or someone else. If I'm more experienced than the skipper I'm blissfully happy to be a helpful grunt unless asked otherwise. Most often I learn a thing or two from the process.

It's not like a car trip, wine tasting or walking trip, it's (1) a situation that has significant risks that need managing, and aren't always readily apparent (2) a situation where relevant and specific expertise is called-for.

As skipper, again personally, I just don't invite people on the boat who aren't interested in sailing, and aren't willing to know their place in a crew. I like taking people so we go sailing together; I don't like taking people as passengers. I've had people give me a grumpy look when I ask them to do up their lifejacket leg straps. Another time I asked someone to prepare a winch for a tack, and be sharp about it, and been told grumblingly to wait while she just finished telling her friend about the kitchen layout (and the ship got closer).

In so many walks of life there's action and reaction. Crew inexperience doesn't bother me a bit; I know it's down to me calmly to help them take part without setting unrealistic demands. Crew inattentiveness causes me stress; I can't know what they're about to do, or not do, next. Crew bolshiness; I won't live with - if I ask for something, even though I say please, it's an instruction not a request.

Everyone who comes on board even for a daysail gets shown (1) how to start the engine, (2) don a lifejacket, which is then worn in anything more than F2 (3) hit the DSC distress button and (4) where the fire extinguishers are. If that all sounds too much and they aren't having fun, they can hop back in their car. (5) everyone has a go at steering as soon as we're off the pontoon. In my view this makes for a happier time for all concerned. Feedback is positive and people like to come again.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

The whole idea of "command" (or even "leadership") in social groupings is not one that comes easily to most people - or even to many sailors, myself included.

It's all very well to think that one person should give orders and the others obey, but it doesn't work like that for car trips, wine tasting evenings or walking trips and I suspect that a group of friends on a charter would have great difficulty about seeing one of their number as "in command" or deciding who that person should be.

That's not to say that those who get their jollies from role-playing Captains Aubrey, Bligh or Smith should not do so, if they can find subs willing to go along with it (don't forget the safe word) but it's not a reasonable way to expect normal people to behave.

Fair enough, and maybe command/leadership was a bit strong but there were evidently people who had a bit of a clue and some that certainly didn't. I'd have expected those with clues to take care of the others and it wasn't apparent that they did. Pretty sure that would happen in nine out of ten randomly selected groups, but maybe matey on the helm was not only the more experienced and enjoying it all, but also a bit of a sociopath to whom taking care of others is an alien concept.

My route into sailing on the sea was a couple of years on a friend's boat (of which he was 'obviously' skipper) and on to my chartering boats about twenty times a year and filling it with cost-sharing mates. I just assumed the skipper role, nobody queried it and must have done it ok-ish because we won races and they kept coming back. Thinking about it, my rule of thumb is that when I step onto someone's boat I normally expect them to be skipper and would extend that to whoever had chartered the boat in the case we're discussing. (On a few occasions I've turned up and been told that actually it's me, which is sometimes a nice surprise...).

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Heave to anyone? Or would it not work in that wind and sea?

I would have tried. Some boats heave to under main alone and gybe if there is much jib up, some like jib.

However having got a Partly furled jib and no main I wondered why they could not simply run under that. Leaving it flogging was bound to destroy it

 

[JumbleDuck]

We still have leadership with inexperienced friends sailing but it’s more friendly advice about actions and consequences, like, “This is the moment we all put on our harnesses and clip on”, or “The boats about to tip way over that way - best places on the boat now are that side of the cockpit, or down below in a bunk”.

I like the phrase "friendly advice".