When your sunny Greek charter goes wrong...

[dankilb]

Boat held up pretty well! Beam on to the sea and the weather and with the gene stuck out, she still seemed to be looking after herself (and her ‘passengers’ - don’t think we can really call that crewing).

 

[38mess]

I've never done a greek charter but from this can i assume those life jackets are what is usually provided? It looks like they are intended just for when people have been told to muster at the lifeboats on the titanic, not something to be worn at any normal times for unexpected events. I suppose people take their own self inflating ones if they like to wear them?

They are all that's required for a charter boat. On my charter boat I have self inflating for all the adults and children, it's more expensive and they need to be checked off every year, but I have the ticket to do that so it saves me some money.

 

[bdh198]

1) failure to suggest life jackets when it began to pipe up. This would have been my default reaction before anything else.

2) likewise, harnesses for all crew.

3) Inability to deal with the situation at hand. Given that they obviously managed to furl away part of the headsail, I'd bet it jammed through halyard wrap. I'd have whipped it all out and tried again and if that didn't work, dropped the halyard and stowed it away. I appreciate that an inexperienced crew would be reluctant to go on deck, but watching a sail tear itself to pieces wouldn't have been an option for me unless the boat was on the verge of being knocked down.

4) Inability to read a lat/long

5) Inability to transmit a pan pan.

Points 1, 2, 4 & 5 are covered at Day Skipper level.

I did conclude the original post by asserting that I thought they’d actually done pretty well.

1) failure to suggest life jackets when it began to pipe up. This would have been my default reaction before anything else.

I agree, life jackets need to go on early, but it’s a little difficult to judge whether it really was a dangerously late decision from the video. Life jackets did eventually go on and I think it is unfair on that basis to call it “fairly shocking seamanship”.

2) likewise, harnesses for all crew.

That would assume the charter boat had harnesses. If it didn’t then it’s unfair to criticise the skipper for the charter companies failure. There’s nothing in the video to suggest the skipper chose not to tell the crew to wear harnesses.

3) Inability to deal with the situation at hand. Given that they obviously managed to furl away part of the headsail, I'd bet it jammed through halyard wrap. I'd have whipped it all out and tried again and if that didn't work, dropped the halyard and stowed it away. I appreciate that an inexperienced crew would be reluctant to go on deck, but watching a sail tear itself to pieces wouldn't have been an option for me unless the boat was on the verge of being knocked down.

We can’t see from the video that they didn’t try unfurling/refurling or dropping the halyard. However, this is an inexperienced crew, quite possibly out for their first ever sailing holiday. Once the weather kicked up I can quite understand why the skipper wanted to remain on the helm and not put an inexperienced person on it in those conditions. It would also be incredibly reckless for the skipper to get one of those inexperienced crew to go to the front of the boat in those conditions. If one of the crew went MOB then that really would have been a disaster. From what is shown in that video, and judging by the inexperience of the crew, the skipper looked like he made a reasoned decision to let the sail flog it self to death, albeit others might have chosen an equally well reasoned alternative course of action.

4) Inability to read a lat/long.

Assuming this is someone who has probably never made a radio call before or had to read lat/long (no evidence to suggest to the contrary, but he’s clearly inexperienced in a boat), and having probably only been given very brief instructions from a skipper distracted by trying to keep a boat safe in difficult conditions, he did alright. At least he didn’t need to resort to using three words (although this might well be a good example of when W3W becomes a valuable service)!

5) Inability to transmit a pan pan.

Same as point 4.

 

[Adios]

Just looking at some comments under the video "Sorry but I don't agree with "get the bow into the wind before attempting to furl"... by strong winds, it's always easier to furl downwind..." Am I missing something because I'm thinking having a sail filled with 60 knots of wind pulling 10 tons of boat will give a lot more resistance to furling than an empty sail even if its flogging around a lot.

Releasing the sheets and letting the sail fly forwards is something i've never had to try but that would have probably been better than leaving it as it was wouldn't it?

 

[Homer J]

Good point re the life jackets. If they had better / more comfortable life jackets they probably would have had them on. Given the basic nature of the ones provided it looks like just enough to satisfy charter requirement. Were they even able to clip on? These jackets don’t look like they have a harness so we’re lifelines even provided?
I think there is a lesson to be learned in finding out what equipment is provided on the boat before charter.
They probably needed to break out the emergency underpants after that experience.

 

[Homer J]

Just looking at some comments under the video "Sorry but I don't agree with "get the bow into the wind before attempting to furl"... by strong winds, it's always easier to furl downwind..." Am I missing something because I'm thinking having a sail filled with 60 knots of wind pulling 10 tons of boat will give a lot more resistance to furling than an empty sa

Releasing the sheets and letting the sail fly forwards is something i've never had to try but that would have probably been better than leaving it as it was wouldn't it?

I have come a cropper like this before. The flogging headsail sheets tangled around the sail and prevented it from furling. I had a few anxious and sweaty moments untangling everything to get it to furl. From this experience I learned that control needs to be kept of the sheets to prevent his snarl up. The conditions I experienced weren’t as bad as this case but we had far fewer crew. I have some sympathy with these guys, although I do agree running with the wind might have been a better bet for them.

 

[Stemar]

It's a new(-ish) boat with some expensive kit and the charter company provides lifejackets like that? The cheapest they can find to tick a box. I've never chartered, but I'd expect better - I'd be reluctant to go out on Rutland Water with those! Can you even fit a harness or safety line to them?

Well, it certainly confirms my rule that I'll take my LJ and line when I go on someone else's boat. At least I know it's the right kind and it's been properly maintained.

 

[Adios]

I have come a cropper like this before. The flogging headsail sheets tangled around the sail and prevented it from furling. I had a few anxious and sweaty moments untangling everything to get it to furl. From this experience I learned that control needs to be kept of the sheets to prevent his snarl up. The conditions I experienced weren’t as bad as this case but we had far fewer crew. I have some sympathy with these guys, although I do agree running with the wind might have been a better bet for them.

I sat out a decent summer squall in the Baltic by luffing up into the wind with just the reefed mainsail, i was doing a fair speed even a degree off the wind but it felt under control compared to being carried away downwind. One benefit of that is the squall passes over you quicker, I was doing 7 knots through it rather than going 10 knots with it.

 

[st599]

Hard to punch up wind when you've got rid of the mainsail though. They could have gone up wind reefed or downwind under jib only.

Possibly by letting it flog, the rope had jumped off the furling drum. at which point it's a pain in the arse to get back on without letting the whole lot out.

 

[Adios]

Just noticed something. This is how much sail is out when it jams. A decently reefed sail



And then its fully out again.

 

[Homer J]

When the sail is under great tension it girls very tightly as evidenced in the photo above. This means more revolutions of the furler to bring all the sail in. It is likely that they ran out of furling line before it was fully in due to the additional rolls required. I’ve also had this issue. The only option is to unfurl and furl again but in high winds the sail always furls tightly and has to be winched in.
I don’t know what the solution would be other than unfurl and drop the sail, which also has its problems.
what would others do to avoid this?

 

[Adios]

When the sail is under great tension it girls very tightly as evidenced in the photo above. This means more revolutions of the furler to bring all the sail in. It is likely that they ran out of furling line before it was fully in due to the additional rolls required. I’ve also had this issue. The only option is to unfurl and furl again but in high winds the sail always furls tightly and has to be winched in.
I don’t know what the solution would be other than unfurl and drop the sail, which also has its problems.
what would others do to avoid this?

Such a common thing that. On an unfamiliar boat makes sense to check there are plenty of spare turns on the drum before taking it out. But it didn't look like that could be the whole cause of this as there was too much sail still out when it jammed.

 

[Sailfree]

I've never done a greek charter but from this can i assume those life jackets are what is usually provided? It looks like they are intended just for when people have been told to muster at the lifeboats on the titanic, not something to be worn at any normal times for unexpected events. I suppose people take their own self inflating ones if they like to wear them?

Airlines can be difficult over compressed air bottles in life jackets.

I consider myself experience but we can all come unstuck.

Had boat for 10yrs and no problem with main reefing system ever reported by charterers or when used frequently by myself.

Set off for France with 1 experienced crew and 3 "passengers". Wind was expected to get up to F5 or F6 but it was a beam reach so expected to be fast crossing.

Started IIRC with 1 reef in main which was fine. But when we got outside Poole Harbour wanted to reef down more and single line reefing would not let me without hoisting main fully first.

Thought just let it flog. Buy with flogging 2 blocks on sail leech came undone and were swinging dangerously. Charter company obviously not tightened them enough.

Abandoned trip.

Problems revealed by that experience - standard 14mm reefing lines and blocks far too big on 43" Jeanneau and too much friction. Changed the lot to 10mm.

3rd reef had single line for leech but horn at mast for luff. Added extra 10mm line for luff. Sail can now be reefed down easily and all from cockpit.

Situation really caught me out yet faults in standard system obvious after the event.

Thought I was really experienced - pride before a fall.

 

[Adios]

Airlines can be difficult over compressed air bottles in life jackets.

I can imagine, plus the weight in the luggage. Seems very cheap of them to skimp on that when its hardly a cheap thing to hire a boat

 

[Tranona]

It's a new(-ish) boat with some expensive kit and the charter company provides lifejackets like that? The cheapest they can find to tick a box. I've never chartered, but I'd expect better - I'd be reluctant to go out on Rutland Water with those! Can you even fit a harness or safety line to them?

Well, it certainly confirms my rule that I'll take my LJ and line when I go on someone else's boat. At least I know it's the right kind and it's been properly maintained.

Actually that type of jacket is compulsory for Greek charter boats - not used because they are cheap. Coding requirements are very basic and unchanged for years.

 

[john0740]

The text with the video includes "It made it especially difficult as our roller furling kept jamming several days prior."
As with many incidents, there's something that happens in advance of the 'main event' that bears on the outcome.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

When the sail is under great tension it girls very tightly as evidenced in the photo above. This means more revolutions of the furler to bring all the sail in. It is likely that they ran out of furling line before it was fully in due to the additional rolls required. I’ve also had this issue. The only option is to unfurl and furl again but in high winds the sail always furls tightly and has to be winched in.
I don’t know what the solution would be other than unfurl and drop the sail, which also has its problems.
what would others do to avoid this?

It's an interesting point .... to avoid this on my own boat I've done the following ....

Replaced the standard 120% genoa with a smaller one (100%) with a foam padded leading edge and an asymmetric for light winds - charter companies tend to put a standard 120% genoa on the boat to give extra sail area in light winds - however, a bigger sail needs more furls to roll it away so is more sensitive to how the furler has been set up.

Too many charter crews unfurl by just letting the furling line go - it then doesn't wrap tightly enough round the drum and tangles or jams .... to solve the problem, they invariably remove a few turns from the drum, and hand the boat back so the next charterer can run out of furling line in situations where they are reefing under load.

To set up my furler, I let my sail out with tension on the furling line to ensure it wraps tightly round the drum as the sail is deployed - when the sail is fully out, I check the drum has as many wraps of rope round it as can sensibly fit in the space available, wrapped reasonably tight - adding turns until it is full .... the remaining rope that is led aft needs to be long enough to reach a winch with enough of a tail to sensibly work with.

Then to check how much reserve I have in the drum, I roll the sail in under tension (normal sailing loads) - ensuring that when fully rolled away there is still rope on the drum and I can continue to reef, wrapping the sheets round the sail too.

When sailing, I reef by easing the sheet, rolling in, easing the sheet, rolling in - with practice (and competent crew) it is very smooth - stay on course with the sail filled and nothing flaps or gets out of hand - I always reef and un-reef with tension on furling line and sheet - unless we are in F3 or below, on a beautiful sunny day, where I am a bit more laissez-faire.

When I leave the boat, I pull the sail in under tension - on my boat that is best done with the genny on the starboard winch while the furler is on the port winch (works if there is no wind too). I furl the genny sheets round the sail 4-5 times too because if the boat is left for extended periods, the motion of boat, snatching of the sheets in high winds, and vibration of the forestay can cause the sail to settle tighter around the furler - and I've seen too many boats where the genny has been trashed by unfurling a couple of feet while unattended. Wrapped tight with a few turns of the sheets round the forestay prevents this from happening - for extra security you can tie off the sheets to prevent them tugging on the sail.

I now don't run out of furling line, although it did happen when I first got the boat - it's an ex-charter boat.

There is enough room on the drum for enough rope to fully furl a 120% genoa under typical sailing loads, as long as the rope sizing is correct, care is taken to unfurl under a bit of tension and it is set up correctly.

 

[chrishscorp]

You can see the weather is deteriorating pretty fast, white horses increasing in number then the rubber flubber looks like it wants to get off the boat. I remember being in northern Corfu a lovely day and in moments out of nowhere 3 waterspouts appeared got too with 2NM then veered off to Albania at the last minute that was hairy

My guess is with the flogging the line has jumped out of the drum, probably best to run downwind and let the lines go then someone can go forward to sort the genoa out, providing you have the sea room. I have done this before and it worked well tho not in that level of wind.

The rule on our boat is as soon as we are ready for the off its life jackets on, harnesses as soon as its dusk, the wind gets up or someone needs to go forward. If those are the lifejackets on offer I am not impressed, I have done a day charter in Greece and it was provided with normal autoinflate LJs

 

[Slowboat35]

Airlines can be difficult over compressed air bottles in life jackets.

Which ones, specifically?
None of the airlines you'd normally use for ex UK holiday flights make the least difficulty over these, it is a complete myth. It's a standard ICAO/IATA exemption. Why would they ban them? What harm can they possibly do? After all, every single airline seat has one stowed underneath it!

Below is an excerpt from the ICAO/IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations which applies to all afiliated airlines (ie any you are likely to travel on).
Airlines can, in theorey, make exemptions from this but in practice I doubt any do. It is perfectly specific and crystal clear.

Self-inflating life jackets are permitted if they contain not more than two small cylinders with a non-flammable gas in Division 2.2 plus not more than two spare cartridges per person.

They may have to be carried in the hold though, if in doubt, check. This info should be readily found on every airlines' Ts and Cs of carriage.

 

[Stemar]

Actually that type of jacket is compulsory for Greek charter boats - not used because they are cheap. Coding requirements are very basic and unchanged for years.

In that case, I'll let the charter co off. Doesn't alter my second paragraph, though.